Clem
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Post by Clem on May 22, 2016 8:31:43 GMT -8
I'm very happy with the third gender option. I'm also surprised by some people's reactions. I thought it was 2016. Why would you want to restrict other people from indicating they don't feel male or female? Exactly: it's 2016. The modern era shouldn't be era based on wishy-washy neoliberal ideas which are completely at odds with rational thought and empirical observation. If a male doesn't feel male, or if a female doesn't female, then that person has my complete love and support. Gender dysphoria is very difficult to live with, and it is crucial that we, as a society, respond to them with compassion and help. But the answer to their struggles isn't to feed into their dysphoria. We shouldn't lie to male human beings by telling them that they are actually female, just because the feel that way. The same goes for female human beings who feel that they are actually male. Similarly, the way to help people with body dismorphic disorders isn't for society to pretend that their delusions are real. Consider the (real) cases of people who are dangerously thin but feel they are excessively overweight; we shouldn't respond to these people by telling them to continue acting as if they are excessively overweight, when in fact the opposite is true. The same goes for perfectly healthy people who think they are disabled, adults who think they are children, and so on. I believe in truth. And so I object to people or organizations (such as ProBoards) spreading the lie that there are more than two genders. There are two genders just as there are two sexes: they mean the same thing. The fact that some men feel a bit female, or some women feel a bit male, doesn't change reality. Men remain men; women remain women. To pretend otherwise is not only false, it's also harmful to those people who really do struggle with gender identity. I recommend this article from the former chief psychiatrist at John Hopkins Hospital: www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120.
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Post by The Unicorn on May 22, 2016 8:40:17 GMT -8
So did I, and yet people still insist on relying on feelings instead of science and reasoning.
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Post by nariadreaming on May 22, 2016 8:51:01 GMT -8
That is a very nice way of putting it skid I applaud you for your diplomacy. I on the other hand as I am about to turn that 60 year milestone will be more blunt... You guys are frigg'n idiots to argue over this and here is why: 1. Who gives a flying rats butt what one calls themself. It is not your business. 2. The option of "Other / Decline to Declare" means... refer to no. 1 it is none of your business. Which 9 times out of 10 probably has nothing to do with what gender I claim to be... it means IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. I do not want to tell you. I do not want you to know. End of story. Huh. You're almost sixty years old and you still haven't learnt that there are two genders? I'm 17 and I know that... obviously. As does any 5 year-old. You have my pity. 1. This isn't about what people call themselves. If that doesn't make sense to you, try reading through this thread and taking the time to properly comprehend the posts made by people you disagree with. 2. I'm not entirely sure what you're going on about here. But suffice to say, if gender is none of anyone's business, I take it you'd like ProBoards to remove the feature altogether? End of story? There aren't just two genders though. There are two biological sexes (and intersex, in some cases) but gender is not a binary designation.
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Clem
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Post by Clem on May 22, 2016 8:53:13 GMT -8
Huh. You're almost sixty years old and you still haven't learnt that there are two genders? I'm 17 and I know that... obviously. As does any 5 year-old. You have my pity. 1. This isn't about what people call themselves. If that doesn't make sense to you, try reading through this thread and taking the time to properly comprehend the posts made by people you disagree with. 2. I'm not entirely sure what you're going on about here. But suffice to say, if gender is none of anyone's business, I take it you'd like ProBoards to remove the feature altogether? End of story? There aren't just two genders though. There are two biological sexes (and intersex, in some cases) but gender is not a binary designation. Umm, if gender isn't sex, what is it? Make sure you aren't confusing gender itself with things like gender identity or gender roles.
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Post by nariadreaming on May 22, 2016 8:55:15 GMT -8
There aren't just two genders though. There are two biological sexes (and intersex, in some cases) but gender is not a binary designation. Umm, if gender isn't sex, what is it? Make sure you aren't confusing gender itself with things like gender identity or gender roles. Gender is identity. It is the set of norms and roles ascribed to a certain sex by society. It's both a cultural expectation and a self-identity. . It has absolutely nothing to do with what is between one's legs. Sex and gender are not synonyms.
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Clem
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Post by Clem on May 22, 2016 9:27:15 GMT -8
Umm, if gender isn't sex, what is it? Make sure you aren't confusing gender itself with things like gender identity or gender roles. Gender is identity. It is the set of norms and roles ascribed to a certain sex by society. It's both a cultural expectation and a self-identity. . It has absolutely nothing to do with what is between one's legs. Sex and gender are not synonyms. What the heck? How how can gender be the set of norms and roles ascribed to a certain sex by society? If that were the case, then you must accept that there are only two genders, since there are only two sexes to which society can ascribe norms or roles. But really, this is dumb. Gender is not the same as gender identity. We know that because we use the word gender in other phrases, such as gender roles. (Not to mention what the dictionary says, as well the fact that the vast majority of people alive today would agree that sex and gender refer to the same thing.) And anyway, if you think gender is something decided by society, how can you say that people can choose whatever gender they like? Your relativistic notion of gender renders it meaningless, because gender becomes anything and everything, dependent on whatever individuals might choose it to mean. Consider also the use of gender in features like the ProBoards gender options we've been discussing. If what you say is true and gender is purely about feelings and how one decides to identify, then the idea of having just three gender options - Male, Female, Other - must seem outrageous to you. If gender is as wishy-washy as you say it is, then surely nobody is strictly male or strictly female, since all men have some female traits, and all women have some male traits. So really you should be in favour of abolishing the idea of male/female gender altogether, because that's far too real and objective for your liking. Which brings us to a deeper issue. You still base all your gender assumptions on a traditional (and common sense) understanding of what it is to be male or female. You believe a person's gender can be in between male and female. But people can only identify that way if they retain an objective understanding of what it is to be male or female, else how could they know they identify as being between the two. Ultimately, this attempt to separate gender from sex is an attempt to legitimize the deluded notion that you can change reality by your feelings. That is, a male can be a female just by feeling that way, or vice versa. That is, of course, absurd. What you feel must be in accordance with what is real. As I said in a previous post, gender dysphoria is a huge struggle for some people, and we need to respond with compassion. But a compassionate response isn't one which feeds into their dysphoria. People with gender dysphoria need help in accepting themselves for who they truly are, because that is the only way that they can be really fulfilled. Finally, sex and gender are about a lot more than what is between your legs. Your sex is imprinted on nearly every cell in your body - all 37 trillion of them! From modern biology, neurology, and social science we have been able to scientifically confirm what humans have always intuitively and empirically known, which is that the sexes are different to the core.
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Post by Lady Dyanna on May 22, 2016 9:28:12 GMT -8
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Post by The Unicorn on May 22, 2016 9:29:33 GMT -8
Umm, if gender isn't sex, what is it? Make sure you aren't confusing gender itself with things like gender identity or gender roles. Gender is identity. It is the set of norms and roles ascribed to a certain sex by society. It's both a cultural expectation and a self-identity. . It has absolutely nothing to do with what is between one's legs. Sex and gender are not synonyms. I think you're mistaking gender for gender roles/stereotypes. If a male walks down the street in a dress he would be upsetting the gender stereotype of dresses being for women, but it wouldn't make him a woman. He would just be a male who was wearing traditionally female clothing. Also, wouldn't self-identity either subscribe to reality or not? In one of my previous posts I talked about someone who had certain characteristics but who said/believed he had completely different characteristics. If a woman is, say, 30 years old, that's how old she is. If she identifies as a 30 year old human then she subscribes to reality in her identification. If she identifies as a 5 year old that doesn't negate the fact that she is in fact not 5 but instead 30. Identify seems intrinsically linked to a quantifiable fact. If I said I was a football player but didn't actually play football my "identity" of being a football player would be false. If a man says he is a man, then he identifies truthfully; if he identifies as a female he is deluding himself in much the same way I would delude myself if I thought I were a unicorn. The amount of feeling/self-identification doesn't determine the truth. I don't hate or dislike or fear people who identify as something they're not, I just don't think it's right or kind to encourage their misconceptions.
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Post by Søren on May 22, 2016 9:30:25 GMT -8
I generally see myself as fairly logical person in some ways and to me it doesn't seem farfetched that there is more then two genders. If a person and many animals can be born with both male and female traits or with some animal they literally are both male and female, then why is it hard to believe that a person can for example be born male but have the mind of a female. It good ProBoard is offering the extra option. However small the group it appeals to is, it a group they get income from now that maybe were turned away before. Saw lot of thread at least in Support asking about a 'other' option and that they had eber not joining through lack of it. I think more sites are doing this now, ProBoards was behind in not offering it. Other site im on seem to suddenly have the option, not sure what changed to allow them but im happy
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Post by The Unicorn on May 22, 2016 9:38:13 GMT -8
Perhaps because humans aren't really equivalent to clownfish...? And the fact that that's how they're biologically made. If humans functioned like clownfish in reproduction and the gender-change that naturally occurs for them then I think you could make an argument for that, but seeing as we don't...
Maybe this would be a fun time to bring up the fact that in the rightful push for equality between men and women some people have fallen into thinking that men and women are identical and there's no difference between them? If that's the case, as some claim it to be, then there wouldn't be a male or female mind, but rather a singular, identical human mind and so it wouldn't matter.
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Post by Brian on May 22, 2016 9:43:16 GMT -8
How bout them new emojis guys? Whose stoked like me? This is my favorite contextual post this year.
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Post by Lady Dyanna on May 22, 2016 9:44:15 GMT -8
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Post by Lynx on May 22, 2016 9:53:22 GMT -8
Everyone who is debating this gender option is forgetting a couple of things: (1) Everyone has a right to their own opinion on the matter. An opinion does not classify as fact. Therefore, everyone is right and no one is wrong - as this debating is from people's personal opinion on the matter - of which is the addition of a 3rd gender option, not what the definition of gender (or sex) is. (2) In reference to (1) above, the reds started this thread to announce to everyone of these 2 new options. However, while I believe that the reds enjoy reading everyone's opinion, I do not recall them asking for people to debate this here. Remember what happened to the Phoenix Announcement thread when people didn't know enough to just back down and let others post their opinion without debate. To refresh people's minds, the reds locked that thread because the debating didn't stop and because it was becoming less civil as it went on. The way this thread is currently going, I can see the reds locking this one too - unless we all just quit on the debating part and just let everyone post their own opinions. No one says you have to agree with what you read, but I'd suggest just not debating it. Unless we all "want" another thread locked because we can't remain civil and think everything has to be debated. My closing thoughts: If this is what's going to happen (the debating) on every new announcement thread the reds give us, I can see a point where they just won't announce it ahead of time. After all, why should they give us an announcement for some cool new features if all that's going to happen is that it gets debated into hostility?
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Post by DeltaDart on May 22, 2016 10:31:43 GMT -8
Everyone who is debating this gender option is forgetting a couple of things: (1) Everyone has a right to their own opinion on the matter. An opinion does not classify as fact. Therefore, everyone is right and no one is wrong - as this debating is from people's personal opinion on the matter - of which is the addition of a 3rd gender option, not what the definition of gender (or sex) is. (2) In reference to (1) above, the reds started this thread to announce to everyone of these 2 new options. However, while I believe that the reds enjoy reading everyone's opinion, I do not recall them asking for people to debate this here. My closing thoughts: If this is what's going to happen (the debating) on every new announcement thread the reds give us, I can see a point where they just won't announce it ahead of time. After all, why should they give us an announcement for some cool new features if all that's going to happen is that it gets debated into hostility? Here here Lynx and I think what some have forgotten directly relates to your closing thoughts, especially considering what the topic really is, which has nothing to do with actual Gender, only what options Proboards will offer for people to choose from. "Why don't you guys offer more than two gender options on signup? Well, ask no more! We plan to introduce a 3rd gender option." Option being the key here, option to say or don't say. For the 17 year old's who either can't read yet or comprehend what they read, that means announcing that 'I'm Male', 'I'm Female', 'I Don't Want to tell you because it's none of your business'. The debate of what gender means is the funny part here. Pretty sure Proboards was not announcing a definition.
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Post by Skidjit on May 22, 2016 10:32:15 GMT -8
Everyone who is debating this gender option is forgetting a couple of things: (1) Everyone has a right to their own opinion on the matter. An opinion does not classify as fact. Therefore, everyone is right and no one is wrong - as this debating is from people's personal opinion on the matter - of which is the addition of a 3rd gender option, not what the definition of gender (or sex) is. (2) In reference to (1) above, the reds started this thread to announce to everyone of these 2 new options. However, while I believe that the reds enjoy reading everyone's opinion, I do not recall them asking for people to debate this here. Remember what happened to the Phoenix Announcement thread when people didn't know enough to just back down and let others post their opinion without debate. To refresh people's minds, the reds locked that thread because the debating didn't stop and because it was becoming less civil as it went on. The way this thread is currently going, I can see the reds locking this one too - unless we all just quit on the debating part and just let everyone post their own opinions. No one says you have to agree with what you read, but I'd suggest just not debating it. Unless we all "want" another thread locked because we can't remain civil and think everything has to be debated. My closing thoughts: If this is what's going to happen (the debating) on every new announcement thread the reds give us, I can see a point where they just won't announce it ahead of time. After all, why should they give us an announcement for some cool new features if all that's going to happen is that it gets debated into hostility?
YAY! Finally, someone said what I had in my mind for ages now. Everyone needs to respectfully agree to disagree or we will get another thread locked.
I'll start by reposting my earlier questions about emoji's.
As you can see, I really love my personal smileys.
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