[Debate] Staff Abusing Powers

[Gylfie107]

When do you think a staff member has pushed the boundaries of power on a forum?

When they give huge consequences for petty things. Or when they lock something because they don't agree with it. Or when they change a member's stats, like their avvie and siggy, as a "joke" (that happened to me)

Is a disagreement grounds for a warning or banning?

Not unless it involves being disrespectfull. Even a serious disagreement should not involve negativity towards the other person, and one that does should have a warning on them.

What about idle threats to warn or ban a member in order to forced them into submission with their own beliefs?

Never. Everyone has their own oppinion, and never should staff, or anyone, bully someone into submission. This is cyberbullying, and at any of my sites, the staff member would not only not be staff any longer, but may be banned.

What about deletion of your post and threads because they disagreed with what was posted?

Unless it was something that was unacceptable, this is bad. If they don't agree with discrimination, they should be able to get rid of, or at least censor, threads with whatever-ism. But if one person has one oppinion that the staff doesn't share, the staff should not close the thread. If they seriously disagree, they can share their oppinion.

Have you had experience with this? Were you ever accused of abusing your powers or a member who was a victim of an abusive staff?

I have been a victom of it, and I've been accused of it (wrongly). At one site, a person was complaining and sending me annoying, though mostly not threatening, PMs because they didn't agree with me that staff should have to follow the rules just as much as other members.

Staff are members with more responibility. In the staff board of one of my proboards, I have a thread about the rights of members vs. the responsibilities of staff. In no way are the staff any better or more important than the members, and staff should not use their powers unless it is needed.

[clares]

Just thought I should have a small mention. My forum is quite small, only three of us moderate it (well, four, but they have disappeared for a long while) and I am the only administrator, and the other two are moderators. I can't remember what powers I let them have or not, but I did disable a couple - not because I don't trust them or anything, but it is just to be cautious.

I don't think admin have too many powers, if the admin are decent enough and know what they are doing then they deserve all the powers and will only use them when they need/have to. However I do agree that on some forums I have been on in the past, the admin are too overpowering with their powers, and it really doesn't make it a fair place, nor a nice place to be.

I agree with the post above too, the last thing said - I, nor anyone else, acts differently or bigger because they are staff members, we all act the same and we feel the same as the members in a way, only if anything does get out of hand we are the responsible ones to deal with it, and with the powers available we deal with it the best way as possible, without making things unfair as such, but keeping things as nice as possible. We are mods that aren't afraid to use our powers, yet the forum is friendly and nice that we don't really need to use them often.

[andy1005]

Power abuse has never been an issue on any of the boards I have administrated because I have systems that prevent it.

Five staff levels: (From top of the hierarchy to the bottom)
Allocator (Administrator)
Staff Council
Global Moderator
Regional Moderator
Sectional Moderator

Sectional Moderators are basically moderators of their assigned boards and are only able to lock and move threads. Their primary role is to breathe life into the forums they moderate.

Regional Moderators are basically moderators of a category (this isn't possible with default settings) but basically, they moderate every board within a certain category. They have the power to edit, lock and move threads. Edits have to be logged within a staff board assigned to it and unjustified edits will result in demotion after careful consideration.

Global Moderators moderate every board on the forum passively but are still limited to what they can do. They can do everything a regional moderator does but they can also ban members along with a few other things but they can't delete threads or posts. All actions taken by the global moderator have to be logged and have a suitable reason. Actions are logged within a specific staff board.

Staff Council basically are highly trusted staff members who look over the decisions of the other mods within the log. Any reports of staff abuse can be sent to the staff council team and they will make their own decision. In some cases (rare) after review by the staff council team, the punishment can be worse than the original one deemed by the Global Moderator.

Allocator (Myself and a friend) - Build and contribute.

In this way, no staff abuse is possible. Staff Council are also monitored loosely by the allocators however it isn't really needed as they are as committed as the board creators are.

Regional Moderators suggest people for Sectional Moderator jobs. Global Moderators suggest people for Regional Moderator jobs and Staff Council suggest people for Global Moderator jobs.

Friends are not always reliable as staff members as they can be corrupted along with any of your other staff members. However I like to think of myself as a decent judge of character and my co-admin always gives me a second opinion on who I promote so all things are well.

I like hierarchy but I'm not a strict person, I made a few lax rules at the beginning and now my staff council do the rules for me and they aren't overly strict either - just enough to maintain order.

We had an issue with a regional moderator moving threads to the 'refuse' board which weren't needed but other than that, I am proud of the staff system.

Moral of the story:

I believe that strict rules will deter members from coming to your board and that there is a higher chance of staff abusing their powers if the rules are strict. I believe that lax member rules but a strict staff system maintains harmony throughout the board and prevents staff abuse and members throwing abuse at staff.

Seven people have resigned from staff positions throughout the board's history due to the strict system in place for staff. They found it was much more productive to be a member and that being a staff member is a working role that not everyone is comfortable with. We always find peaceful ways to solutions though.

[onelonewolf]

Jun 23, 2008 7:24:51 GMT -8 Enchant said:

Staff Abusing Powers, This seems to be a huge issue for many members.

There seems to be a continuous struggle regarding what the rights of a member are and the responsibilities of a staff member. When do you think a staff member has pushed the boundaries of power on a forum? Is a disagreement grounds for a warning or banning? What about idle threats to warn or ban a member in order to forced them into submission with their own beliefs? What about deletion of your post and threads because they disagreed with what was posted?

Have you had experience with this? Were you ever accused of abusing your powers or a member who was a victim of an abusive staff. Please keep in mind, that this isn't cyber bullying I am talking about, that is a whole different issue. This is about staff stepping over the line.

I also want to note, that while this does go on is some forums, it doesn't reflect all forums.

You know, I was always told at the forums that I helped admin or mod, that as a staff member, we were held even more acountable for our actions than the regular members. If we broke a rule, we got in MORE trouble than a member who isn't a mod or admin would. I tend to agree with this rule, and use them at my forums. I think that a staff member needs to really watch their own actions--they are supposed to be a role-model for the other members after all. I have not had too much experience with people actively abusing powers on my own forums; but I did have a rather anoying person that kept constantly posting in the wrong threads. This moderator would always post and then we would have to move his topics! (This was not my forum, but merely one I moderated). It annoyed me because as a mod, I didn't WANT to move their topics, but had no choice.

I think that if a staffmember gives someone a warning for any other reason then the fact that the member broke the rules, they are abusing their powers. I think mods should stick to their rules too. Changing the rules constantly only leads to confusion, not order.

I have been accused of abusing my powers many times. I helped to mod a forum and chat where not all of the mods were on the same page. Some moderators would let members get away with things that others wouldn't. (This was more of a problem in chat then the forums themselves). This, not surprisingly, would lead to acusations of us 'harder' mods power triping. But then, the place I moded for, you were accused of power triping just for warning someone if the majority of members didn't think it was fair. It was a rough place to moderate to be honest.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on this topic. I think that a staff member who actually abuses their power should be demoded. As long as the accusations against them are legitimate, I think that they need to lose their status as mods if they do something like ban (if you allow mods to ban) or warn members without a good reason. At the same time, I think an admin needs to step up and defend their moderators when a member complains about them and the complait is not valid. I've had people complain about me for giving them a warning--when the warning was completely legit. Our admin did stand up for us; and I think this is important to do.

~LoneWolf~

[*lemondrops.]

When do you think a staff member has pushed the boundaries of power on a forum?

I think that this line isn't exactly clear, because many circumstances are different. But one definite red flag is when a staff member makes a decision that harms the forum simply because of their own emotions/views.

Is a disagreement grounds for a warning or banning?

No, I don't think so. There's disagreements in real life too, it's only expected to happen online as well. However, unless someone stooped to a personal level or became very disrespectful, then there is no need for a warning or banning. Differences of opinions are not grounds for you to pull out the staff card.

What about idle threats to warn or ban a member in order to forced them into submission with their own beliefs?

I've never actually seen this happen, but this would not be right at all. It's forcing someone to choose between their beliefs and having fun on your site. It's just plain mean.

What about deletion of your post and threads because they disagreed with what was posted?

I've never had this happen to me, either! Nor have I seen it happen to anyone else, but again, kind of ridiculous.

In summary, I believe that the staff members (in order to make sure they are not abusing their powers) have a set of rules that they can reference and should always remember that beyond the internet, it is a real person that they are dealing with.

[Luke]

I had a staff member who was great they were a awesome coder, coding up our forum and we were in tip top condition. He deleted his account and said he didn't mean to it was by mistake. Then a few weeks later the headers and footers were deleted! We lost everything!! Ever since I keep a back up of the codes now

[Snakeair]

Apr 15, 2010 21:15:29 GMT -8 Luke said:

I had a staff member who was great they were a awesome coder, coding up our forum and we were in tip top condition. He deleted his account and said he didn't mean to it was by mistake. Then a few weeks later the headers and footers were deleted! We lost everything!! Ever since I keep a back up of the codes now

As the main admin it is your job to make daily or weekly backups of your forum's stuff. Don't trust your staff 100% that they will never do bad things to your forum because it will happen if a moderator gets pissed off about something or had enough of being a moderator on your forum for some odd reason.

Being a former mod on proboards and currently a super moderator on a large webmaster forum i never abuse my power's. I was happy to get picked to be a moderator and will always go by the admin's rules.. my reputation is on the line being a moderator. It's hard to pick mod's that you can trust with running your site while you are away at school or even on vacation. Give them to much power as in ability to upload codes is not a good idea. I am sorry you had to go through this but it's a lesson learned for you.

This is a very good thread to look over if you have some time. I was going to mention a lot more things but it's been said already. lol

Before you pick someone to be a mod on your forum, try to search for the username here on the support forum or in google and see if they are members on other forum's. Then read there posts to get a idea about there posting habit's. You don't want a mod that disrespects people or breaks forum rules on other forum's.

[Nick (Goodbye!)]

Depending of the severity of the issue, you can either warn them or just ban them. I think that no matter what kind of things they might do (even little things like locking for no reason or editing posts to suit their opinion) shows their immaturity, and I think for a forum to be successful, you need mature staff. Now if they are deleting posts and headers/footers and really bad stuff like that and trying to ban the admin and such, I would immediately ban them, not just demote them. I'm sorry I don't have much to say, today is just one of those days where I don't feel like explaining things. (maybe another day)

[tr3m0n]

Well, i try myself to be a nice administrator and always welcome new members. I do not have any moderator and i wont until i find a guy that i can trust. I cannot give admin powers without the knowledge of what he could do. I may have the forum up for 3 years, but i do not have more than 10 members.

If i ever give mod powers to anyone it would be only to change the news and lock topics. I really dont think anything else is needed. Of course, as i said before, if i trust him i would give him more powers.

I ve seen a disaster like this too, when a mod started locking threads for no reason and stickying his own topics.

Finnaly, i think that a board that gives mod powers to anyone will not last for long.

~Mkbul

[Auroral]

I strive to be a good staff member always but there are situations when you need to take your staff's actions very seriously.

Discrimination, insults, threats all lead to warnings and/or banning depending on gravity. One time for example we had a moderator that threathened the site because we decided to advertise earlier than she suggested. Reasons this person gave was that we ignored her advice and for that the whole site will go down which i find ironic considering her threat. Of course that was were we drew the line and banned her from the entire site since that wasn't the first time of trouble causing.

Second would be a situation where there was power abusing but it got solved through a verbal warning and private conversation.

All in all, I believe most situations don't demand drastic measures and can be solved by conversation. You have to keep in mind staff members are human too and have good and bad days even though there are situations that demand action.

[{~Trusty~}]

Oh, abusing powers happens all the time on a forum which I'm a member of. Whenever someone disagrees with the head admin's 'best friend' that one's banned. I wish I could talk sense into the head admin, but that's not possible. *sigh*

[ily 'TIL THE end]

1. When do you think a staff member has pushed the boundaries of power on a forum?

I believe that a staff member has stepped over the boundaries when they begin to show favoritism. I.E. When someone comes along and makes a mockery of a thread or what someone else says and the victim of this reports it and the staff get upset that the victim reported a friend of theirs. Most of the time, the victim would get upset and not realize that perhaps maybe the staff don't know what they're doing and think it's justifiable just because they are staff.

2. Is a disagreement grounds for a warning or banning?

Well, if two people argue and it's a first offense, the best course of action is a verbal warning. Perhaps as the staff member, post a kind reminder that people shouldn't argue and get along. Second offense should give them a warning in PM that if any further arguments happen, they will receive a proper warning that will be displayed in their profile. Whether it shows to the members or just the staff is up to the staff. So in short, people who argue, if they have received warning after warning... and show no signs they are learning from their mistakes, they should be banned.

3. What about idle threats to warn or ban a member in order to forced them into submission with their own beliefs?

Never should a staff member do this. They should be reported because really, this can be along the lines of cyber-bullying because of how the staff member is treating them. Just because they are staff, doesn't mean their actions are not deemed cyber-bullying.

4. What about deletion of your post and threads because they disagreed with what was posted?

No staff member should delete a post or thread just because they disagreed with someone. That is favoritism to an ideal. Now, it's understandable if you don't agree with someone but if it gets so bad that you have to delete a post or thread, it should only come when the thread is getting nasty and going against rules. Not because you disagree with a personal opinion. If you disagree with a personal opinion, then live with it. Everyone has a right to have an opinion. It's honorable that some people wish to change the minds of others but in the end, it's best to respect someone for being so passionate for their opinions.

5. Have you had experience with this?

I've never abused my powers whether I gave myself them or was given them. I don't believe in that.

6. Were you ever accused of abusing your powers or a member who was a victim of an abusive staff.

Yes (wrongly of course) and yes, to the latter part of that question.

[ragnarok918763]

Jul 16, 2008 7:34:30 GMT -8 Shelly said:

When do you think a staff member has pushed the boundaries of power on a forum?
When the admin of the forum hi-jacks your profile, changes your name to 'That Thing', gives you a title of 'The Troublemaker' and have a load of bull---- proof that shows you in a bad spotlight. They overstep their boundaries when they lie to other players to make them seem like the good person. When they ban members who have a different opinon that they dont like. All these things are stepping over the boundary line.

Is a disagreement grounds for a warning or banning?
Having a different opinon is perfectly fine. This can lead to a disagreement, though. Depending on the situation, the more suitable punishment might be banning, or it might just be a warning. Banning as a punishment might come from more severe things such as a disagreement coming up over a warning, or a disagreement turning into a fight. Warnings should be used to avoid these disagreements, but a lot of times staff do not get their ideas out right and/or the member(s) ignore them.

What about idle threats to warn or ban a member in order to forced them into submission with their own beliefs?
If there are staff like that, then I will leave the forum immediately. This happened to me. I decided that I didnt like the 'flow of things' and voiced my opinons and was banned because I wasnt part of 'The Group'. Forcing someone into submission is just plain wrong. If staff cannot understand and accept that people have different Point Of Views on everything, then they shouldnt be staff. Staff members should be understanding and helpful, not the opposite of that.

What about deletion of your post and threads because they disagreed with what was posted?
- shakes head -
That is just plain wrong. If the staff member cannot accept the fact that everyone has their own minds and that they can speak/act for themselves, then they shouldnt have any powers. If they're going to delete threads and posts because they dont like what is written, they should be out of there. The only way for a good discussion to happen is if everyone can openly share their feelings and opinons with everyone else. If you have a different view on something, you should make it clear so they understand where you are coming from. To me, it's important that I get to put in my word and get my point across.

Have you had experience with this? Were you ever accused of abusing your powers or a member who was a victim of an abusive staff.
The answer to all those questions are Yes. When I was 'abusing my powers' happened when I removed someone from my forum who was causing trouble - such as purposely posting public threads about things that were against not only my rules but the Proboards TOS. They'd post 'R' rated things and I would delete it, and then the member threw a fit. Once the member left, though, things had settled down, and 'everyone got back to their lives' so to say.

I have been a victim a lot more. At one point, I might even classify it as cyber bullying. For example:
I have a profile on a forum before some things came up. The owner of the forum to it into her own hands to censor my name into changing into 'That Thing'. She added a nice little title as 'The Troublemaker' and put my warning level to '99%'. She then added a link to my signature that was link to 'proof'. I have screeshots of my profile, and Im holding onto them. I let it slide for the time being.

There has been other times when I've recieved private messages with nasty messages in it. The staff turn their backs when I brought this up to them - and it was another staff member doing this (go figure, staff are always buddies, right?) so when I went public with the proof, they denied it, and being staff, the 'bad person' was me.

If your opinion on this stands, then it was true that the admins on one other forum I joined at the start of this year are abusing their authority. They threatened to change my user name, which they eventually did. They also made fun of my weaknesses, like exploiting my many things which I did wrong and promoting / glorifying racial intolerance. Take a look at this:

18. OBJECTIONABLE CONTENT

You represent and warrant that you shall not use the Website or Services to upload, post, transmit, display, perform or distribute any content, information or materials that: (a) are libelous, defamatory, abusive, or threatening, excessively violent, harassing, obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, or pornographic; (b) constitute child pornography; (c) solicit personal information from or exploit in a sexual or violent manner anyone under the age of 18; (d) incite, encourage or threaten physical harm against another; (e) promote or glorify racial intolerance, use hate and/or racist terms, or signify hate towards any person or group of people; (f) glamorize the use of hard core illegal substances and drugs; (g) advertise or otherwise solicit funds or constitute a solicitation for goods or services; (h) violate any provision of this Agreement or any other ProBoards agreement or policy, including without limitation ProBoards' Community Guidelines; or (i) is generally offensive or in bad taste, as determined by ProBoards (collectively, "Objectionable Content"). PROBOARDS DISCLAIMS ANY PERCEIVED, IMPLIED OR ACTUAL DUTY TO MONITOR THE CONTENTS OF THE WEBSITE AND SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ANY RESPONSIBILITY OR LIABILITY FOR INFORMATION PROVIDED HEREON. Without limiting any of its other remedies, ProBoards reserves the right to terminate Your use of the Website and Services or Your uploading, posting, transmission, display, performance or distribution of Objectionable Content. ProBoards, in its sole discretion, may delete any Objectionable Content from its servers. ProBoards intends to cooperate fully with any law enforcement officials or agencies in the investigation of any violation of this Agreement or of any applicable laws.

So they pick on me just because I'm different. Why me? Why so personal? How come they don't bully some other new member?

There was another incident as well, where this staff person banned me just because of my views on things. I got no warning whatsoever beforehand, due to they 'assuming' that I knew the rules. What rules? I had no idea what they were talking about.

[Storm]

Aug 6, 2010 16:43:55 GMT -8 ragnarok918763 said:

Jul 16, 2008 7:34:30 GMT -8 Shelly said:

When do you think a staff member has pushed the boundaries of power on a forum?
When the admin of the forum hi-jacks your profile, changes your name to 'That Thing', gives you a title of 'The Troublemaker' and have a load of bull---- proof that shows you in a bad spotlight. They overstep their boundaries when they lie to other players to make them seem like the good person. When they ban members who have a different opinon that they dont like. All these things are stepping over the boundary line.

Is a disagreement grounds for a warning or banning?
Having a different opinon is perfectly fine. This can lead to a disagreement, though. Depending on the situation, the more suitable punishment might be banning, or it might just be a warning. Banning as a punishment might come from more severe things such as a disagreement coming up over a warning, or a disagreement turning into a fight. Warnings should be used to avoid these disagreements, but a lot of times staff do not get their ideas out right and/or the member(s) ignore them.

What about idle threats to warn or ban a member in order to forced them into submission with their own beliefs?
If there are staff like that, then I will leave the forum immediately. This happened to me. I decided that I didnt like the 'flow of things' and voiced my opinons and was banned because I wasnt part of 'The Group'. Forcing someone into submission is just plain wrong. If staff cannot understand and accept that people have different Point Of Views on everything, then they shouldnt be staff. Staff members should be understanding and helpful, not the opposite of that.

What about deletion of your post and threads because they disagreed with what was posted?
- shakes head -
That is just plain wrong. If the staff member cannot accept the fact that everyone has their own minds and that they can speak/act for themselves, then they shouldnt have any powers. If they're going to delete threads and posts because they dont like what is written, they should be out of there. The only way for a good discussion to happen is if everyone can openly share their feelings and opinons with everyone else. If you have a different view on something, you should make it clear so they understand where you are coming from. To me, it's important that I get to put in my word and get my point across.

Have you had experience with this? Were you ever accused of abusing your powers or a member who was a victim of an abusive staff.
The answer to all those questions are Yes. When I was 'abusing my powers' happened when I removed someone from my forum who was causing trouble - such as purposely posting public threads about things that were against not only my rules but the Proboards TOS. They'd post 'R' rated things and I would delete it, and then the member threw a fit. Once the member left, though, things had settled down, and 'everyone got back to their lives' so to say.

I have been a victim a lot more. At one point, I might even classify it as cyber bullying. For example:
I have a profile on a forum before some things came up. The owner of the forum to it into her own hands to censor my name into changing into 'That Thing'. She added a nice little title as 'The Troublemaker' and put my warning level to '99%'. She then added a link to my signature that was link to 'proof'. I have screeshots of my profile, and Im holding onto them. I let it slide for the time being.

There has been other times when I've recieved private messages with nasty messages in it. The staff turn their backs when I brought this up to them - and it was another staff member doing this (go figure, staff are always buddies, right?) so when I went public with the proof, they denied it, and being staff, the 'bad person' was me.

If your opinion on this stands, then it was true that the admins on one other forum I joined at the start of this year are abusing their authority. They threatened to change my user name, which they eventually did. They also made fun of my weaknesses, like exploiting my many things which I did wrong and promoting / glorifying racial intolerance. Take a look at this:

18. OBJECTIONABLE CONTENT

You represent and warrant that you shall not use the Website or Services to upload, post, transmit, display, perform or distribute any content, information or materials that: (a) are libelous, defamatory, abusive, or threatening, excessively violent, harassing, obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, or pornographic; (b) constitute child pornography; (c) solicit personal information from or exploit in a sexual or violent manner anyone under the age of 18; (d) incite, encourage or threaten physical harm against another; (e) promote or glorify racial intolerance, use hate and/or racist terms, or signify hate towards any person or group of people; (f) glamorize the use of hard core illegal substances and drugs; (g) advertise or otherwise solicit funds or constitute a solicitation for goods or services; (h) violate any provision of this Agreement or any other ProBoards agreement or policy, including without limitation ProBoards' Community Guidelines; or (i) is generally offensive or in bad taste, as determined by ProBoards (collectively, "Objectionable Content"). PROBOARDS DISCLAIMS ANY PERCEIVED, IMPLIED OR ACTUAL DUTY TO MONITOR THE CONTENTS OF THE WEBSITE AND SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ANY RESPONSIBILITY OR LIABILITY FOR INFORMATION PROVIDED HEREON. Without limiting any of its other remedies, ProBoards reserves the right to terminate Your use of the Website and Services or Your uploading, posting, transmission, display, performance or distribution of Objectionable Content. ProBoards, in its sole discretion, may delete any Objectionable Content from its servers. ProBoards intends to cooperate fully with any law enforcement officials or agencies in the investigation of any violation of this Agreement or of any applicable laws.

So they pick on me just because I'm different. Why me? Why so personal? How come they don't bully some other new member?

There was another incident as well, where this staff person banned me just because of my views on things. I got no warning whatsoever beforehand, due to they 'assuming' that I knew the rules. What rules? I had no idea what they were talking about.

I hate to say it, but it's not staff abusing powers. They have every right to bann you for what ever reason they wish. (This is has been stated even in the support forum by admins as long as the forum remains within the tos) It's your resposibility as a new member of any board/forum to find and locate their rules and read them and follow them. Ignorance is no excuse. It's like trying to tell a cop that you didn't know that you needed a driver's license to operate a motor vehicle.

Same thing goes for any forum. They can't force you to read the rules, but it's your best interest to do so. If in doubt, send a pm to a mod of that forum to ask. It's better than getting treated poorly for simply not observing something that a forum/board has outlined for their forum/board.

And to be fair, how is that they know you are 'different' as you claim? Unless you provide a photo of yourself, people can't tell what color or nationality you are online. It's like trying to say you were charged a bill and the person on the phone is supposed to know your race to not charge you a certain amount. So it's kind of unfair to judge an admin in that manner by saying they banned you because of your race.

[ragnarok918763]

Storm, that isn't the only point that I'm addressing. You probably recalled the fact that they changed my profile name which was what Undesired talked about in the post. How come it's mine that they modify? How come they have to hijack my profile and make it seem like I'm in the wrong, thus giving others the impression that the admins are correct?

Furthermore, on this issue, I don't understand why they make threads about people's birthdays and insult me when it's my birthday. I just don't get the thing about targeting me out of all the members on that board.

Check these links out if you don't believe me:

www.syphonfilter.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2774

www.syphonfilter.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2749

Note to any staff members: please do not remove the hyperlinks. I have had them taken away in one other thread I posted in.