Discussion/Debate -Trans Gender vs Cisgender in Athletics

[📚 Dianne 📚]

nypost.com/2020/02/13/connecticut-girls-sue-to-ban-transgender-athletes-from-high-school-sports/


www.fox61.com/article/news/local/transgender-athlete-loses-track-race-lawsuit-ciac-high-school-sports/520-df66c6f5-5ca9-496b-a6ba-61c828655bc6


Should Transgender Males be able to compete against Cisgender Females? And really, vise versa.

 

I think that many people really don't know what transgender  really means (I wasn't 100% positive myself)  so I looked it up and found that it (the basic definition) is: 

trans·gen·der

/transˈjendər,tranzˈjendər/

Learn to pronounce

adjective

denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.

"a transgender activist and author"

 To me this means that the male, is not going through sex change and therefor has all of his testosterone,  stronger musculature etc. This means that they are MALE and should not be competing against a sex that has a disadvantage right out of the box.

The debates on this issue are pretty brutal on social media, but don't seem to me to be very logical.

So what is your opinion and why?

[Retread]

Feb 19, 2020 8:02:47 GMT -8 📚 Dianne 📚 said:

Should Transgender Males be able to compete against Cisgender Females? And really, vise versa. 

What IS a Transgender Male?

Does it matter whether or not they've completed gender-reassignment surgery?

Is a Transgender Male a person who was born other than male and identifies now as a Male?

Or are they someone who was born Male and now identifies as other than male?

Feb 19, 2020 8:02:47 GMT -8 📚 Dianne 📚 said:

So what is your opinion and why?

I can't really form an opinion because there are so many factors in play that it has become totally confusing.

Sexual equipment at birth. Even this isn't simple and binary. Male, Female, and Intersex.

Sexual orientation/preference.

Gender identity.

Reassignment, partial or complete? To Male, Female, Both, Neither?

---

I reckon some folks will immediately insist on the rights of the newly-become-female to compete with other females.

But I wonder if some of those people might think differently if Bruce Caitlin Jenner had undergone his her gender-reassignment surgery soon after his Olympic Gold Medal win in the Decathlon.

Would they change their story and say that would obviously be an unfair advantage? I don't know.

[Artemis]

Whew. This can be a rough one. I've studied this some, so I'll throw in what I know.

If someone has been on hormones for some amount of time, give or take two years, all sorts of things can happen. Anatomy ends up being less important than hormones, because hormones affect muscle mass, bone structure, speed, endurance, all sorts of things. This is important because the main argument against trans people competing against people of the gender with which they identify tends to be misunderstandings about "biological advantages."


There was a study published in the Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities that said:

Together, these changes [in hormones] lead to a loss of speed, strength and endurance - all key components of athleticism ... it's not the anatomy that matters, it's the hormones.

Further, from an interview with Dr. Marci Bowers, MD:

Most measures of physical strength minimize, muscle mass decreases, bone density decreases, and they become fairly comparable to women in their musculature. After as much time as has passed in her case, if tested, she would probably end up in the same muscle mass category as her biologically born female counterpart.

There are some things that don't change, however, like bone structure, lung capacity, and a few other things. Once we get to a place like this, though, it's a matter of averages, because there are cis women with all kinds of body types. This is what makes the decision difficult: deciding what factors to take into account when structuring competitions. Height? Weight? Strength? Sex? Some overlap of all these things? What we typically find is that the problem isn't usually just a matter of sex; there need to be other controlling factors to really make things "fair," and once we get to that point, the gender you were assigned at birth becomes less and less important.

So the short answer is yes, I think they should, with some caveats. The slightly longer answer is that I think this reveals a broader question about how we structure some competitive events and sports to begin with.

[📚 Dianne 📚]

Feb 19, 2020 10:19:04 GMT -8 Artemis said:

Whew. This can be a rough one. I've studied this some, so I'll throw in what I know.

If someone has been on hormones for some amount of time, give or take two years, all sorts of things can happen. Anatomy ends up being less important than hormones, because hormones affect muscle mass, bone structure, speed, endurance, all sorts of things. This is important because the main argument against trans people competing against people of the gender with which they identify tends to be misunderstandings about "biological advantages."


There was a study published in the Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities that said:

Together, these changes [in hormones] lead to a loss of speed, strength and endurance - all key components of athleticism ... it's not the anatomy that matters, it's the hormones.

Further, from an interview with Dr. Marci Bowers, MD:

Most measures of physical strength minimize, muscle mass decreases, bone density decreases, and they become fairly comparable to women in their musculature. After as much time as has passed in her case, if tested, she would probably end up in the same muscle mass category as her biologically born female counterpart.

There are some things that don't change, however, like bone structure, lung capacity, and a few other things. Once we get to a place like this, though, it's a matter of averages, because there are cis women with all kinds of body types. This is what makes the decision difficult: deciding what factors to take into account when structuring competitions. Height? Weight? Strength? Sex? Some overlap of all these things? What we typically find is that the problem isn't usually just a matter of sex; there need to be other controlling factors to really make things "fair," and once we get to that point, the gender you were assigned at birth becomes less and less important.

So the short answer is yes, I think they should, with some caveats. The slightly longer answer is that I think this reveals a broader question about how we structure some competitive events and sports to begin with.

So,  and forgive me if I misunderstand-  you are talking about someone who has already started to go through the physical changes to change gender form birth gender. 

As I understand it a transgender is basically someone who doesn't feel as if they are the sex they are born into.  That they haven't yet had any changes made. Am I incorrect in my thinking? If so, then how could a questioning or rather transgender male really be able to compete fairly (although I see that it has already been done) with a female of similar build. Without starting on drugs for a sex change they would be at a  pretty great advantage over the females.

[📚 Dianne 📚]

Feb 19, 2020 9:45:02 GMT -8 Retread said:

Feb 19, 2020 8:02:47 GMT -8 📚 Dianne 📚 said:

Should Transgender Males be able to compete against Cisgender Females? And really, vise versa. 

What IS a Transgender Male?

Does it matter whether or not they've completed gender-reassignment surgery?

Is a Transgender Male a person who was born other than male and identifies now as a Male?

Or are they someone who was born Male and now identifies as other than male?

Feb 19, 2020 8:02:47 GMT -8 📚 Dianne 📚 said:

So what is your opinion and why?

I can't really form an opinion because there are so many factors in play that it has become totally confusing.

Sexual equipment at birth. Even this isn't simple and binary. Male, Female, and Intersex.

Sexual orientation/preference.

Gender identity.

Reassignment, partial or complete? To Male, Female, Both, Neither?

---

I reckon some folks will immediately insist on the rights of the newly-become-female to compete with other females.

But I wonder if some of those people might think differently if Bruce Caitlin Jenner had undergone his her gender-reassignment surgery soon after his Olympic Gold Medal win in the Decathlon.

Would they change their story and say that would obviously be an unfair advantage? I don't know.

 
 I added what the dictionary defines a transgender person to be, which is a person who doesn't identify with the sex they were born to, and still has his/her original equipment, testosterone, chromosomes etc. So I'm essentially asking if a male who is *questioning* should be able to compete with females.

[wildmaven]

Feb 19, 2020 12:31:44 GMT -8 📚 Dianne 📚 said:

 I added what the dictionary defines a transgender person to be, which is a person who doesn't identify with the sex they were born to, and still has his/her original equipment, testosterone, chromosomes etc. So I'm essentially asking if a male who is *questioning* should be able to compete with females.

Transgender: denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.

A transgender individual can be someone who has not yet gone through reassignment surgery or they can be someone who has gone through the surgery. 

[Artemis]

Feb 19, 2020 12:22:26 GMT -8 📚 Dianne 📚 said:

Feb 19, 2020 10:19:04 GMT -8 Artemis said:

Whew. This can be a rough one. I've studied this some, so I'll throw in what I know.

If someone has been on hormones for some amount of time, give or take two years, all sorts of things can happen. Anatomy ends up being less important than hormones, because hormones affect muscle mass, bone structure, speed, endurance, all sorts of things. This is important because the main argument against trans people competing against people of the gender with which they identify tends to be misunderstandings about "biological advantages."


There was a study published in the Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities that said:

Further, from an interview with Dr. Marci Bowers, MD:

There are some things that don't change, however, like bone structure, lung capacity, and a few other things. Once we get to a place like this, though, it's a matter of averages, because there are cis women with all kinds of body types. This is what makes the decision difficult: deciding what factors to take into account when structuring competitions. Height? Weight? Strength? Sex? Some overlap of all these things? What we typically find is that the problem isn't usually just a matter of sex; there need to be other controlling factors to really make things "fair," and once we get to that point, the gender you were assigned at birth becomes less and less important.

So the short answer is yes, I think they should, with some caveats. The slightly longer answer is that I think this reveals a broader question about how we structure some competitive events and sports to begin with.

So,  and forgive me if I misunderstand-  you are talking about someone who has already started to go through the physical changes to change gender form birth gender. 

As I understand it a transgender is basically someone who doesn't feel as if they are the sex they are born into.  That they haven't yet had any changes made. Am I incorrect in my thinking? If so, then how could a questioning or rather transgender male really be able to compete fairly (although I see that it has already been done) with a female of similar build. Without starting on drugs for a sex change they would be at a  pretty great advantage over the females.

Right. In this specific case I'm arguing from the perspective of someone who transitioned after puberty and who is on hormone treatment. That's where the caveats come in, because there's no single answer for this. In cases like where someone isn't medically transitioning I'm not so sure, I'd probably lean toward no. If we can acknowledge that hormones play a massive role in many of the factors we currently use to set competitive categories, then the lack of that treatment would be, imo, a pretty valid reason to consider whether someone is able to compete or not.

This is controversial in some trans circles because on one hand we need to acknowledge that a trans person isn't only valid if they transition medically (that is, your identity isn't any less important because you don't/can't do hormone treatment), but on the other we need to acknowledge the huge physical impact this transition will have. So opinions will vary, but this is where I stand.

"Transgender" just describes anyone who doesn't identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. This could be trans women, trans men, nonbinary people, etc. It's an umbrella term. It doesn't refer to whether they're medically or socially transitioning, their current "status" or appearance, whether they've had any procedures, nothing like that.

[📚 Dianne 📚]

Feb 19, 2020 12:58:05 GMT -8 wildmaven said:

Feb 19, 2020 12:31:44 GMT -8 📚 Dianne 📚 said:

 I added what the dictionary defines a transgender person to be, which is a person who doesn't identify with the sex they were born to, and still has his/her original equipment, testosterone, chromosomes etc. So I'm essentially asking if a male who is *questioning* should be able to compete with females.

Transgender: denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.

A transgender individual can be someone who has not yet gone through reassignment surgery or they can be someone who has gone through the surgery. 

Why do you think then, that the dictionary is giving it such a loosely  translated definition?  I should assume that the dictionary is incorrect -that one person is questioning and the other who is going through the change is transitioning?

Because I see these things as apples and oranges -one  person is is still the sex they were assigned to at birth and one is going through the change. For the athletic argument and lawsuit, they would really need to explain things more clearly.

[📚 Dianne 📚]

Okay, I haven't stated what I think about this as there is so much to take in, but at first glance and going by the dictionary definition -I would have to say no, these males (for that is what I think of then as until they have gone the whole nine yards AND get their periods *if that is possible*), should not be competing with/against females. Females have to work so hard just competing with each other to win meets, competitions, and for scholarships that why should another obstacle be out in their paths?

[daniel]

Feb 19, 2020 9:45:02 GMT -8 Retread said:

What IS a Transgender Male?

Does it matter whether or not they've completed gender-reassignment surgery?

Is a Transgender Male a person who was born other than male and identifies now as a Male?

Or are they someone who was born Male and now identifies as other than male?

In short, it's the gender the person identifies as in their daily life, regardless of birth or the past.

Transgender man = person who may not necessarily be male by genetic XY but identifies as male.
Transgender woman = person who may not necessarily be female by genetic XX but identifies as female.

So, "transgender man/male" is someone you should call him and treat as you would most other men, and vice versa for women. The word transgender in there is just a way, at *their* choice, of letting others know of that change. Whether or not there is hormone/medical therapy or gender reassignment, a person can identify as their chosen self expression and it is polite to respect that. The medical part is a step along the way for some, but not all.

_______________________________________

copied from my reply in the other thread:

There should be a men's/open category where anyone can enter and take their best shot. Then there should be a women's category.

Is this awful for MTF athletes? Yeah, no disputing that. But, we have to pick the lessor evil in this case. However unfair it is to a very few MTF athletes, it is exceptionally unfair to women. Anybody claiming that MTF athletes don't have an unfair advantage is not speaking from a rational position or one that affirms that the entire rest of the female gender deserves respect. Competing in sports is a privilege, not a right, and no individual has a right to do so in a manner that is demonstrably uncompetitive.

[wildmaven]

Feb 19, 2020 13:59:29 GMT -8 📚 Dianne 📚 said:

Okay, I haven't stated what I think about this as there is so much to take in, but at first glance and going by the dictionary definition -I would have to say no, these males (for that is what I think of then as until they have gone the whole nine yards AND get their periods *if that is possible*), should not be competing with/against females. Females have to work so hard just competing with each other to win meets, competitions, and for scholarships that why should another obstacle be out in their paths?

Sexual reassignment surgery does not transplant or create a uterus, so there is no menstrual cycle.

Which dictionary are you using?

[📚 Dianne 📚]

Feb 20, 2020 0:47:41 GMT -8 wildmaven said:

Feb 19, 2020 13:59:29 GMT -8 📚 Dianne 📚 said:

Okay, I haven't stated what I think about this as there is so much to take in, but at first glance and going by the dictionary definition -I would have to say no, these males (for that is what I think of then as until they have gone the whole nine yards AND get their periods *if that is possible*), should not be competing with/against females. Females have to work so hard just competing with each other to win meets, competitions, and for scholarships that why should another obstacle be out in their paths?

Sexual reassignment surgery does not transplant or create a uterus, so there is no menstrual cycle.

Which dictionary are you using?

Then the athletes never know what it is like for a  girl to compete while having her period.  I know that for adult and pro competitors there are ways to stop or delay your period- so for the sake of this conversation let's stick to the teenagers.

The one at the top of the Google page when you look up transgender, and the ones that cover the list to about a third of the way down. When I saw the definitions were similar I gave up looking.

[User 180565 is taking donation]

If athletics just competed like wrestling by weight and strength there would be no reason to debate.

[SafeInSanity]

There are only two genders. Separate them.

[Sonikku1011]

As a trans male, I hate seeing other trans men competing against cis women, because I find it to be a bit transphobic in a way. We are men, yes biologically we were born as female and our biological make up is that of a female, but if they've been on testosterone and working out then their structure is that of a man's and NOT a cis woman. This is a huge disadvantage to cisgendered women. It's along the lines of allowing a cis gendered man to compete against a cis gendered woman. Also gender does not equal biological sex. Your gender is what you present yourself as, the way you carry yourself, the way you dress, how society sees you. Your sex is what you were born as biologically. There are multiple genders and even multiple sexes too. I know it's confusing to those who don't deal with this issue on a daily basis. Also trans male or FTM were born as female but transitioned to male. MTF is Male to Female, meaning they were born as men but transitioned to women. Trans Women cannot have traditional periods, as they do not have the biological organs to do so however, they still can experience menstrual cramps while on Estrogen. Trans Men, like myself, still can have periods even after taking testosterone for a while, until a hysterectomy is performed.