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Post by private on Oct 19, 2017 11:45:17 GMT -8
Tumbleweed, my main question deals with your first statement up there regarding that no one should be forced to get health insurance. Do you have auto insurance? If so, is that unfair as well? It's a mandate that if you have a vehicle, you have to have insurance. Why should healthcare really be any different? *Genuinely curious* It's a little something called freedom of choice. If I don't want to pay car insurance I don't buy a car. If I don't want to pay home insurance I don't buy a home. If I'm healthy and young, I should be able to choose not to get health insurance. That said, I don't think it is smart to not have health insurance. Tumbleweed: Are you saying that those who have it are stupid? Perhaps where you live there are some legitimate doctors that will treat patients that do not have insurance. Insurance covers the cost of treatments, medications and etc.
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Post by Ajay on Oct 19, 2017 14:27:51 GMT -8
Tumbleweed, my main question deals with your first statement up there regarding that no one should be forced to get health insurance. Do you have auto insurance? If so, is that unfair as well? It's a mandate that if you have a vehicle, you have to have insurance. Why should healthcare really be any different? *Genuinely curious* It's a little something called freedom of choice. If I don't want to pay car insurance I don't buy a car. If I don't want to pay home insurance I don't buy a home. If I'm healthy and young, I should be able to choose not to get health insurance. That said, I don't think it is smart to not have health insurance. The correct comparison would be if you choose not to have health insurance you don’t want your health lol.
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Post by ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ on Oct 19, 2017 14:40:30 GMT -8
It's a little something called freedom of choice. If I don't want to pay car insurance I don't buy a car. If I don't want to pay home insurance I don't buy a home. If I'm healthy and young, I should be able to choose not to get health insurance. That said, I don't think it is smart to not have health insurance. Definitely, not the same by any stretch of the imagination. Cars and homes are options in life.
It's the reason why national healthcare works in other countries and why it is now mandated under the ACA.
No matter our age, we can become ill; we can have an accident. So we go to the hospital and we're treated. Or the insured has a minor illness and they go to their doctor. The uninsured goes to the ER.
And who pays for ER service? All the rest of us. That's who.
So we ARE paying for all of the uninsured. And have been doing so for decades. And the ACA wanted to end that. We pay billions for the treatment of the uninsured. BILLIONS.
So I'd rather it be mandated in order for us all to benefit than be selfish, not be insured, and then expect treatment at the cost of the rest of us.
Your analogy fails on the car insurance, as well.
Too many don't have insurance but own a car and drive. And when they're in an accident, we all pay for that, as well. And the law punishes them, because it is mandated they carry car insurance.
Only thinking about one's self is so very short sighted and an unfair burden on society.
It's an illusion and a delusion to think we don't already pay for the uninsured.
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Post by Artemis on Oct 19, 2017 18:24:19 GMT -8
I understand the freedom of choice argument to an extent. We're all individuals, and to be told what we have to spend money on can suck. But I also look at it as being part of a community. We live in a country and get all the benefits of living in that country, from safety to upkeep to the economy it provides, and when more people are doing well, the economy and everyone does better. When we address issues to pull people out of poverty, they can pay their own way. When we address lack of education, people go on to get better paying jobs and make the place they live better.
I think healthcare should be one of those things. We all benefit from it. You can be poor and suddenly get access to subsidized healthcare, or you can be better off and you won't have to pay a massive co-pay if you already have insurance. When more people have healthcare, we won't see so many people who depend on the ER for basic treatment, people who can't work because of health issues they can't treat, etc, etc.
So I do understand the freedom of choice thing, and how it must feel to have the government demand you pay for something you don't want. But someone can't choose to live or not. (I mean, technically you can, but that's illegal in many places.) So if I'm alive, and I'm living in this community that I'm a part of, I feel like it's fair. I mean, if I pay for healthcare, that's the same system: I'm paying into a bigger fund that helps me when I need it, with the help of others who also pay into that system. It's logical that it expands to cover everyone.
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Post by ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ on Oct 19, 2017 21:05:23 GMT -8
As they say, freedom isn't free.
Some things in life are required of us.
The government (federal, state, local) demands we pay taxes.
City government demands we adhere to building codes, etc.
We must be schooled until we reach our majority.
If we don't do the things required of us; we suffer the penalties/consequences.
But not so with health insurance. You don't have it; you still must be treated in the ER at taxpayer expense.
And I wouldn't want to deny that care, rather I prefer health care be mandated and subsidized if one can't afford same.
Per my link, that actually costs less than treating the uninsured.
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Post by Tumbleweed on Oct 19, 2017 22:48:05 GMT -8
It's a little something called freedom of choice. If I don't want to pay car insurance I don't buy a car. If I don't want to pay home insurance I don't buy a home. If I'm healthy and young, I should be able to choose not to get health insurance. That said, I don't think it is smart to not have health insurance. The correct comparison would be if you choose not to have health insurance you don’t want your health lol. Some people prefer to just pay out of pocket. Some people plan ahead with savings and such and don't want to deal with health insurance. You can still have your health and not have health insurance. So no, your comparison doesn't work. It's a little something called freedom of choice. If I don't want to pay car insurance I don't buy a car. If I don't want to pay home insurance I don't buy a home. If I'm healthy and young, I should be able to choose not to get health insurance. That said, I don't think it is smart to not have health insurance. Tumbleweed: Are you saying that those who have it are stupid? Perhaps where you live there are some legitimate doctors that will treat patients that do not have insurance. Insurance covers the cost of treatments, medications and etc.
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Post by private on Oct 20, 2017 2:37:25 GMT -8
The correct comparison would be if you choose not to have health insurance you don’t want your health lol. Some people prefer to just pay out of pocket. Some people plan ahead with savings and such and don't want to deal with health insurance. You can still have your health and not have health insurance. So no, your comparison doesn't work. Tumbleweed: Are you saying that those who have it are stupid? Perhaps where you live there are some legitimate doctors that will treat patients that do not have insurance. Insurance covers the cost of treatments, medications and etc. Tumbleweed: Is my summary correct? You first stated freedom of choice. Then you expressed it was smart to have health insurance.
My Opinion: I think that if a person can afford health insurance, they should have it.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Oct 20, 2017 7:28:43 GMT -8
Tumbleweed, my main question deals with your first statement up there regarding that no one should be forced to get health insurance. Do you have auto insurance? If so, is that unfair as well? It's a mandate that if you have a vehicle, you have to have insurance. Why should healthcare really be any different? *Genuinely curious* It's a little something called freedom of choice. If I don't want to pay car insurance I don't buy a car. If I don't want to pay home insurance I don't buy a home. If I'm healthy and young, I should be able to choose not to get health insurance. That said, I don't think it is smart to not have health insurance. Others have already pointed it out, but I have to echo those sentiments. While yes, you have freedom of choice in some areas, you do not in others. For example, yes, you can choose whether not to have a car, so that means you can decide against the insurance if you do not drive. By the same token though, the health argument doesn't work. Just because you choose to act healthy doesn't mean you will not be injured, sick, etc. at some point. From my perusal of this thread, most people are saying that we all already pay for the uninsured through ER visits, insurance, etc. However, if we mandate that everyone has it, then it seems less likely that costs will stay high due to the uninsured. Granted, I know there will always be uninsured people regarding healthcare much like there are uninsured motorists. However, would you not wish that everyone was covered so hopefully your rates could stabilize or potentially lower?
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Post by Pearson on Oct 20, 2017 8:28:02 GMT -8
"Rates could stabilize or potentially Lower?" My contribution in my company's BCBS of Illinois is going up 68% for 2018?!?!
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Oct 20, 2017 8:31:02 GMT -8
"Rates could stabilize or potentially Lower?" My contribution in my company's BCBS of Illinois is going up 68% for 2018?!?! Right, but that was due to the uncertainty regarding the payments to insurers. Since President Trump talked about getting rid of them all year, insurance companies hiked their prices to compensate. Had President Trump worked to stabilize the payments and the uncertainty, there was a good chance they could have stabilized or lowered in some cases. Or at least if he had done so before insurance companies set their 2018 rates. Edited: Sorry I got interrupted and accidentally hit Submit before I was done.
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Post by ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ on Oct 20, 2017 11:19:01 GMT -8
Insurance premiums always go up ~ health, car, home, life, etc. And at times substantially.
It happened before the ACA, during the ACA and it will continue to happen.
The subsidies from the ACA don't go towards health insurances profits; they go towards paying the premiums of those who qualify for subsidies.
Health insurance will always be costly because our health care system is costly. Unless and until we address that, things won't change.
Where else does a single aspirin cost between $15/$20 EACH but in the hosptial?
And under every single one of the plans the Republicans have put forth, those over 50 will be hit even harder than they currently are.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Oct 20, 2017 12:39:22 GMT -8
Insurance premiums always go up ~ health, car, home, life, etc. And at times substantially.
It happened before the ACA, during the ACA and it will continue to happen.
The subsidies from the ACA don't go towards health insurances profits; they go towards paying the premiums of those who qualify for subsidies.
Health insurance will always be costly because our health care system is costly. Unless and until we address that, things won't change.
Where else does a single aspirin cost between $15/$20 EACH but in the hosptial?
And under every single one of the plans the Republicans have put forth, those over 50 will be hit even harder than they currently are.
I agree that they will always rise, but I was basing off the last few years under the Affordable Care Act that our premiums had their yearly hike a lot less than previous and what's projected for 2018. Almost sounds like hospitals want to to outdo airports on extravagant prices for non-tasty food doesn't it?
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Post by ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ on Oct 20, 2017 12:51:16 GMT -8
I agree that they will always rise, but I was basing off the last few years under the Affordable Care Act that our premiums had their yearly hike a lot less than previous and what's projected for 2018. Almost sounds like hospitals want to to outdo airports on extravagant prices for non-tasty food doesn't it? HoudiniDerek , yes. I wasn't contradicting your post. If Trump doesn't pay the subsidies, then the insured will. It's truly that simple.
People who think that reneging on the subsidies is a good idea, will find out the hard way that it isn't.
I was merely pointing out that costs will always go up. We get older; we have more health issues, the cost of care. It always goes upward.
And as long as our healthcare itself is so egregiously high and profit oriented, don't expect your health care insurance not be as well.
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Post by HoudiniDerek on Oct 20, 2017 13:35:25 GMT -8
I agree that they will always rise, but I was basing off the last few years under the Affordable Care Act that our premiums had their yearly hike a lot less than previous and what's projected for 2018. Almost sounds like hospitals want to to outdo airports on extravagant prices for non-tasty food doesn't it? HoudiniDerek , yes. I wasn't contradicting your post. If Trump doesn't pay the subsidies, then the insured will. It's truly that simple.
People who think that reneging on the subsidies is a good idea, will find out the hard way that it isn't.
I was merely pointing out that costs will always go up. We get older; we have more health issues, the cost of care. It always goes upward.
And as long as our healthcare itself is so egregiously high and profit oriented, don't expect your health care insurance not be as well. I thought maybe I had made it sound like the prices were likely to never go up, so I wanted to explain more.
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Post by Artemis on Oct 20, 2017 13:45:58 GMT -8
Insurance premiums always go up ~ health, car, home, life, etc. And at times substantially.
It happened before the ACA, during the ACA and it will continue to happen.
The subsidies from the ACA don't go towards health insurances profits; they go towards paying the premiums of those who qualify for subsidies.
Health insurance will always be costly because our health care system is costly. Unless and until we address that, things won't change.
Where else does a single aspirin cost between $15/$20 EACH but in the hosptial?
And under every single one of the plans the Republicans have put forth, those over 50 will be hit even harder than they currently are. That's one thing about our perspective on healthcare that I think we need to change: many people assume it costs as much as they're being charged. So people get billed an insane amount for getting a cast or getting medication or having some procedure done, they think, "Well, that's how much it costs then, there's no way the government could pay for this kind of stuff for everybody." But that's due to companies wanting profit, not because they're fairly priced. (Remember Shkreli? And he's hardly the only one.) Under a better system we wouldn't be paying nearly as much. I agree the price hikes suck, but that just tells me we're looking to save money in all the wrong places. Rather than cutting budgets that will throw people off health care, we need to address why our whole system is so expensive to begin with.
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