[Debate] Staff Abusing Powers

[HoudiniDerek]

May 19, 2009 17:56:33 GMT -8 banasbud said:

May 19, 2009 14:19:57 GMT -8 @katzel said:

Plus if someone is trying to tell you how to run things you don't have to listen use your own judgement.

I think that's really unfair to say that. The reason why I say this is because as stated by someone else earlier, an admin can be manipulated into thinking that they have no choice but to do what is asked of them. Through the manipulation of being lead into a sense that their safety and the safety of their board is at stake. Admins who just ban people for -as you put it- bombarded them with pms seems dubious because in some way I tend to think that pms were flying back and forth rather than all one-sided and at least it was being kept offsite. Which is to me is better than dragging it out in the open which some people will do because they shout and scream and must be heard (no matter how wrong they are)
An administrator can be conned into thinking that another staff member has the answer and that's what they were going for and some people will go the extra mile to stay friends with that co admin and sooner or later find that the snake was just using them to get to a goal they were playing the original admin for.
I've known of people like that. Falling off the wagon, having a drinking problem, or not taking their meds and having some kind of mental condition that prevents them from being reasonable is one of many excuses they might use but setting out to use someone for the sole purpose to get higher up the ladder and getting to a goal and having NO PROBLEM stabbing anyone in the back for it is just .... evil.
People CAN be manipulated into things that would normally go against their better judgement. The issue of staff abusing power covers all aspects of staff abusing other staff, by way of playing them, or demoting them and kicking them off when they haven't broken any rules because they can't be controlled anymore is abuse. Plain and simple. Staff abusing members happens just as much as staff abusing staff and in that scenario is even more devastating if that member never had a voice to begin with and was banned when they voiced their voices or their concerns. In otherwords when they pipped up and finally said something. That's all I'm saying.

I don't see how it's unfair for her to say that. After all, it is her opinion on the situation. Maybe some people are easily manipulated by fear or whatever other emotion that allows them to not believe in their abilities, but that is not always the case. It sounds like Katzel was speaking from personal experience that just because a member says something does not mean an admin has to do what they say. To me, staff are more likely to abuse their power when they are too focused on keeping all members regardless over providing the best forum possible in terms of content and membership.

[katzel]

May 20, 2009 6:50:25 GMT -8 HoudiniDerek said:

I don't see how it's unfair for her to say that. After all, it is her opinion on the situation. Maybe some people are easily manipulated by fear or whatever other emotion that allows them to not believe in their abilities, but that is not always the case. It sounds like Katzel was speaking from personal experience that just because a member says something does not mean an admin has to do what they say. To me, staff are more likely to abuse their power when they are too focused on keeping all members regardless over providing the best forum possible in terms of content and membership.

I am speaking of my personal experience and how I myself saw the situation.
I like what you said about staff being more likely to abuse their power when they are too focused on keeping all members regardless over providing the best forum possible in terms of content and membership.
I also look at the quality and content of the forum rather than membership numbers.
A forum that's fun and engaging and welcoming.

[Nacku]

HD, It's also another thing when you, as the admin, aren't able to make any judgements because when you go online and to your board, you find that one of your staff has already banned some members, and there's nothing you can do but try to email them and explain that you weren't the Gastapo that went after them. So in a way - using your better judgement is to literally get rid of certain staff members because sometimes it's just the last straw or let them spin themselves a web that they couldn't get their way out of.

Sure it doesn't mean that they won't react and do you a sh!tty, of course someone like that will do exactly as their nature does and ban away. I have staff now that I trust and next time I won't be beguiled by the "I work for IT and am a wiz at computers, can I be on your staff?" line. Next time, I'll take the time to learn programming, however long it takes, myself!

[HoudiniDerek]

May 20, 2009 12:27:37 GMT -8 Nacku said:

HD, It's also another thing when you, as the admin, aren't able to make any judgements because when you go online and to your board, you find that one of your staff has already banned some members, and there's nothing you can do but try to email them and explain that you weren't the Gastapo that went after them. So in a way - using your better judgement is to literally get rid of certain staff members because sometimes it's just the last straw or let them spin themselves a web that they couldn't get their way out of.

Sure it doesn't mean that they won't react and do you a sh!tty, of course someone like that will do exactly as their nature does and ban away. I have staff now that I trust and next time I won't be beguiled by the "I work for IT and am a wiz at computers, can I be on your staff?" line. Next time, I'll take the time to learn programming, however long it takes, myself!

That is why I never give out staff positions...usually for a year or so at the minimum. It gives me time to get to know them as members. Then, if they are promoted, they have the most basic power...mainly to lock threads. They earn over time. I think that works best. In my mind, if your staff abuse their powers, it reflects on the admin. After all, they can't sign up and click the staff member spot.

(No, I am not directing at you specifcally...it is my opinion in general).

[Nacku]

I hear ya. No problems. I actually thought I could trust this person because she was soooo nice. So polite. So helpful. So "I 100% support you all the way!" Hey I never said I was Einstein nor do I consider myself overtly skeptical of people and I should damn well be! I should be the top skeptical person on the planet! My nature of being nice and too trusting is taken for stupidity. I guess my fear had shown through too much and that was like a big red target on my back. A goodie-goodie this one is gonna propel me right into a super-favor of all the people.

Maybe some people can now understand why I fretted, why I fell beneath the cracks and disappeared. You can't easily defeat someone who's driven you to the brink and then you're sittin' all in the back of the bus. All the while, they are seen as the shining star. The most popular fan in the place. The best person and everyone's hero. When one villain was pretty much done away with, she got right to work with setting up one to replace it. And yes, I fell for it. I passed along whatever she told me to, posting what she told me to, sending messages for my behalf about something. Sometimes I protested about it but in my mind I was 'helping a friend' so I went ahead. What a dupe. And I was always being shown links to this or that and was proded into a reaction. Any kind of reaction.

Only those who've seen the other one/the real side of that person is ever in the know. And I learned once again, the hard way because I needed to feel secure about her suggestion to make a board about all the experiences I've lived through. I should have been privvy right away when my board was immediately shown to the criminal stalker. Should have known.

Have you seen 'Angela & Demons'? Well, picture the guy whom everyone loved and his heroic deeds wowed the people...but...well, I won't spoil it for you. But that's what I'm talking about. People like me don't have it in our hearts to work evil and I can't use someone to get to a goal because if I can't reach a goal I set for myself, I won't bother with it. Because of that, I don't see them coming. I don't know them. I'm blind to them. Well, not anymore. *knocks on wood*

[katzel]

May 20, 2009 16:00:21 GMT -8 HoudiniDerek said:

That is why I never give out staff positions...usually for a year or so at the minimum. It gives me time to get to know them as members. Then, if they are promoted, they have the most basic power...mainly to lock threads. They earn over time. I think that works best. In my mind, if your staff abuse their powers, it reflects on the admin. After all, they can't sign up and click the staff member spot.

Those are very good points.
I give out staff positions to those who I can completely trust.
People I've known for years and communicate with a lot and who know me in real life. I certainly wouldn't do that with a stranger.
Sometimes staff can make mistakes and overreact in certain situations.
We're only human. Right?
It's often a learning process for both the admin and their staff.
I'm pleased to work with people who I can also say are good friends too.

[banasbud]

May 20, 2009 6:50:25 GMT -8 HoudiniDerek said:

May 19, 2009 17:56:33 GMT -8 banasbud said:

I think that's really unfair to say that. The reason why I say this is because as stated by someone else earlier, an admin can be manipulated into thinking that they have no choice but to do what is asked of them. Through the manipulation of being lead into a sense that their safety and the safety of their board is at stake. Admins who just ban people for -as you put it- bombarded them with pms seems dubious because in some way I tend to think that pms were flying back and forth rather than all one-sided and at least it was being kept offsite. Which is to me is better than dragging it out in the open which some people will do because they shout and scream and must be heard (no matter how wrong they are)
An administrator can be conned into thinking that another staff member has the answer and that's what they were going for and some people will go the extra mile to stay friends with that co admin and sooner or later find that the snake was just using them to get to a goal they were playing the original admin for.
I've known of people like that. Falling off the wagon, having a drinking problem, or not taking their meds and having some kind of mental condition that prevents them from being reasonable is one of many excuses they might use but setting out to use someone for the sole purpose to get higher up the ladder and getting to a goal and having NO PROBLEM stabbing anyone in the back for it is just .... evil.
People CAN be manipulated into things that would normally go against their better judgement. The issue of staff abusing power covers all aspects of staff abusing other staff, by way of playing them, or demoting them and kicking them off when they haven't broken any rules because they can't be controlled anymore is abuse. Plain and simple. Staff abusing members happens just as much as staff abusing staff and in that scenario is even more devastating if that member never had a voice to begin with and was banned when they voiced their voices or their concerns. In otherwords when they pipped up and finally said something. That's all I'm saying.

I don't see how it's unfair for her to say that. After all, it is her opinion on the situation. Maybe some people are easily manipulated by fear or whatever other emotion that allows them to not believe in their abilities, but that is not always the case. It sounds like Katzel was speaking from personal experience that just because a member says something does not mean an admin has to do what they say. To me, staff are more likely to abuse their power when they are too focused on keeping all members regardless over providing the best forum possible in terms of content and membership.

Yes it is her opinion, but my opinion is that it's unfair to generalize like that considering how many different ways someone can be abused by another. What's also strange is that someone can go and join forums and begin asking for a mod or admin position almost from the get-go by a claim of being in IT.

Nacky, what boards were you given a pretty quick mod position to? And were you ever asked to be a mod of any boards this person has simply because you were willing to do things and post things you would sometimes be asked to? You don't have to give links but a yes or no.
The thing about "being human and making mistakes" is one thing, but it's kinda another thing when someone supposedly messes up and they get keel hauled, get banned from everyplace by the tyrant throwing a fit and getting everyone they can to leave friends lists, myspace lists, and calls out WWIII upon and wishes to lay total waste and annihilation to the person they're mad at.
There's just no excuse for that. That to me is what a tyrant is and going WAAAY overboard with their power.

[Nacku]

That wasn't all **** did! **** wanted to see blood spilled. Death. Even calling international authorities over a blog at MySpace. I can already tell you, I've seen death threats posted at MySpace before and the police will only take action if someone actually is in danger. The death threats posted against me were silly and overjoyed . The blog *I* posted? A bunch of questions much like what we're discussing here but way tamer. I'd say tyrant is a mild word when describing this person.

Yes indeedy, I was asked to mod her boards and I've known her for the same length of time that she's known T. Same exact timing. But her and T are good friends. But T knows someone I don't have any connections to. Who do you think will be the shinier trinket? Do the math.

"If you join I'll make you a moderator. Then we can get everyone else to join.
Be sure to post my link and get your friends to join."

"Would you like to be a moderator or admin? Just let me know and I'll set you up."
(note how prophetic those words really were)

"I'm glad to have you onboard and if there's anything you need o help you understand how to work the controls from your new mod status, let me know!"

Anyway, that's just a sample culled from PMs I've gotten over the few years I've known her. As a rule, I save everything.

[Patrick [ASE]]

OK
Reading between the lines, a couple of members here seem to be bringing their dirty washing to the discussion.
Leave the dirty washing at the door and lets keep this in eneral terms.
The debate boards are not for airing personal disagreements from other boards.


Staff abusing power ?
that's all down to trust, the admin deciding how much power each staff member has, and the protocol of running the boards.
example, on this board the mods have power to ban, but they better have a very good reason for doing it, all such actions are noted, and powers will be removed if they overstep the mark.
It's all down to teamwork and trust.
If staff can't work together, then they should not be staff.

[Nacku]

May 21, 2009 17:35:28 GMT -8 Patrick [ASE] said:

mods have power to ban, but they better have a very good reason for doing it, all such actions are noted, and powers will be removed if they overstep the mark.

When a staff member removes all the people they just don't like because of some stupid thing, or name, or association that is abuse of power. Definitely. A good reason for banning should be based on what the member (or staff did) to earn that.

And what about tolerance? I tolerated the actions of a staff member doing these things and still didn't remove them. Do others get the same tolerance and understanding? Not at all. Not in the particular case I'm referring to on another board...so yes, a case of staff abusing power simply because...they can.

Heh, kinda like that old adage; it's okay for [whomever] to do it but not okay for you to step outta line. I do believe some boards are created for merely vanity purposes. To make one look important and all must be subjects and adherent to that end. Those never work out, really, because the teamwork depends or is devoted to a sense that everyone is making one person look good.

[Patrick [ASE]]

The admin (especially) is allowed to ban for whatever reason they want (as long as it isn't against TOS (racial, etc)), it's their board,
If another staff member bans, they would have the admin to answer to.

though i hope that most boards are run in a similar way to this one.

[Nacku]

It's like two ends of the spectrum, there're people with really itchy trigger fingers and that have a trigger happy nature and then there are people who are very tolerant and patient and understanding. Trigger-happy (or more like ban-happy) people can ban for whatever they think is a good reason...it doesn't mean necessarily that it's a good reason but what can you do? Abuse comes in levels, I think. It's the level of abuse how one would gage it.

Someone who bans a member (and then apologizes for it) and bans again, and repeats that behavior is an habitual abuser of their power. Someone who bans once and is done with it, and won't come up to rub salt in wounds or one's face in something is not an abuser even though they might have banned for whatever trivial reason there was. And there are people that want that glory of being the best at banning. Kinda like a medal. I've seen that.

[plymouthair]

May 18, 2009 15:15:49 GMT -8 Nacku said:

Kudos to you, plymouthair! There are admins who would take any opportunity to embarrass someone, some are more subtle though and take shots with back-handed comments.

You mentioned that your situation involved someone trying to get back into your forum using aliases...I can see that I'm not alone in experiencing that. I had someone (a stalker) actually do that along with another follower who would terrorize our yahoogroups in that way. It wasn't just signing back up under another name, she would use the group features to send spam and would create profiles that were similar to real members' profiles in an attempt to cause confusion and in-fighting.

Thanks Katzel & Nacky for the support etc,

I have ( I hope ) sorted the issue, i have since send a very serious email out to both users, stating their positions with me and my forum, both had content that related to legal advice, soon after i received emails from one,saying sorry and all the usual rubbish, have since re-opened sign ups on my forum, been open for about a week, and yes, they've not tried signing back up which is a huge relief for me.

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one that has troubles on line, people must think they can hide behind a computer screen, but I'm my situation an IP address reveals all.

All my three other staff are vary supportive of my decisions, at first i kinda randomly selected three, though now i don't regret one minute of it, they are keen to help, advise and maintain the board with my assistance. Thanks to your chaps for a wonderful 1 year of ops.

Anyway, enough of the dirty washing.

The job role of admins and mods are to support and maintain the board as far as I'm aware, amongst making the forum a welcome place for all, and participating in conversations and postings.

Thanks

[Nacku]

Good going Plymouthair! I'm glad to see that people like you have boards that have a purpose. There are forums that are created for vanity reasons and admins who just want power over some group of people. I'm dealing with an abuser (still) when I thought it was behind me. It followed me. I do believe trying to weasel out of the proof I have on it by making up some pretty entertaining stories. I guess some people never grow up. Good show that you were able to chose random people for your staff. All the people on my staffs are people I have known for some time and one who is my sister.

My sis has been quite busy banning IPs from those IP sites that hide real IPs. A library or two that's only from one area, not all libraries (not that any have shown up outside of a certain area) and well, just keeping it together. I have a feeling this weekend won't be free of some stress, though.

[Gia_Sesshoumaru]

When do you think a staff member has pushed the boundaries of power on a forum?

I believe that everyone should have rules that they have to abide by - even staff members. Overstepping their boundaries would be trying to do someone else's job and not doing what is strictly in their rules. That, and of course, banning people for no reason, directly disobeying things said by people higher up than them, and doing things that are not within their rights to do on their own.

Is a disagreement grounds for a warning or banning?

Like it has been said many times, it depends. If it came to rules or how things are run, then yes, it is grounds for warning or banning. If the member can't be reasoned with, there's no reason to have a troublemaker on the forum. However, if it's a disagreement on something else, like a thought, idea, or belief - anything like that, then no, it is never grounds for warning or banishment in my opinion.

What about idle threats to warn or ban a member in order to forced them into submission with their own beliefs?

Everyone is entitled to their own ways of thinking. I mean, if the site is about a certain thing, and someone posts directly saying that they hate said thing, then yes, it is, but in most cases, everyone has their rights to post what they believe and feel, even if it disagrees with the majority. As long as it's said in a non-argumentative manner, then there's no reason for such childish things.

What about deletion of your post and threads because they disagreed with what was posted?

Same thing as what I said previously. If the post is rude or anything like that, then it can be deleted, but if there being polite and not stupid (like saying that they hate what the site is about) then there's no reason to start going and deleting stuff for no reason.

Have you had experience with this? Were you ever accused of abusing your powers or a member who was a victim of an abusive staff?

On proboards... not me, personally. I do, however, have a friend who had her account on a site hacked into years ago because a guy was jealous that she was doing a... mature RP... with another guy. He changed her password, and read the private RP she'd been doing with this other guy. Furious, of course, she left the site. After all, it was stupid... It's just RPing.

On a non-Proboards site, I did, though. I was wrongfully suspended for a few hours for no reason. I had a friend post on her account on my computer asking if they'd recieved my e-mail to their staff account, and I was promptly banned for having double accounts, which was a lie. She was very helpful, though, and stayed up hours later than she should have talking with other staff and dealing with the situation. I felt very betrayed, though, because I'm one of the oldest members of the site, and I felt like, "Is this how I'm being rewarded for my many years of loyal service?" That was well over a year ago, and it's all water under the bridge now, though. She's stepped down since then for RL reasons anyway, though.