ProBoards Plugin Library

[Ryan Roos]

Peter

The rating system is just fine. It seems to work for sites like Amazon with no problems.

I just want to touch on some things. First you're really complaining about the rating system and the libraries while they're still in their infancy. The most reviews a plugin has right now is 3. When that number is 30 let's talk again.

22 Million people use ProBoards every month. Not all of them are admins and not all of them will be installing plugins and themes, but even if only 1% of them are admins, and only 1% of admins use library items that's still 2200 people. Let's say only 10% of people review things. You're still looking at 220 reviews and ratings. Let's say it's even lower. 1% again. Still 22 people. That's going to make a pretty nice average rating for any plugin or theme. It's going to accurately reflect the public perception of the theme or plugin.

If somebody gives you a 3 star rating and says your plugin is great and a second person gives you a 3 star rating sand says your plugin sucks they offset each other. The system works itself out. These same people go and review other plugins with their same systems (that you may or may not think are accurate or correct).

Or lets say that everyone is really weird and gives 3 star ratings while saying things are amazing. They're all rating other plugins and themes like that too. It's not a broken system. It a time tested system that works great. You might not agree with how other people rate things, but that doesn't mean they are wrong. It means that over time there will be a consensus since that's how ratings that average work. Everyone get's one vote and every vote is equal. If you give 5 stars for good things and I give 4 stars it will work itself out over time.

Better plugins and themes will have better star ratings. And worse ones will have worse ones, because it's all a consensus of the community that uses them. You can't say you don't like something when it has barely even started. You're hating the food before you've even tasted it.

Lastly and to anyone who is still reading. If someone gives you a 1 star rating and says that the theme or plugin lacked support, then authors should learn from that and make sure they give support (provide links to here help can be found. Create a thread on your forum specifically for that plugin or theme). Reviews exist for as much reason as stars do. They are there so that authors themselves can learn what it is the public expects and to make their plugin or theme better. Reviews also exist so that people can make informed decisions. When I see a product with a bunch of 4 and 5 stars and a few one stars on Amazon I read what the one stars say. And when I can tell it's just someone being dumb and talking nonsense i discount their rating. Conversely if they are speaking something that actually matters to me and I find to be likely true then I can elevate that rating as well. That's why we didn't just do stars, but we also did reviews. Because what a person says can matter as much as what they rated something.

As for a thumbs up thumbs down rating system, that is even worse than a star rating system. It's literally binary. You either hate something or you like something. There is no middle ground or room for improvement. The more people rate a plugin or theme the more accurate it's true value becomes, this would never be the case with a binary rating system.

The moment we start cheating the system is the moment that the system falls apart. Unlike something like Yelp we are not going to change ratings based on who the authors are or what they do for us (ie. pay us). A rating is a rating. If you get a low rating and don't like it then do everything you can to impress everyone else after that point. If the review of the rating isn't true then people will see that based on other reviews. If it is true then maybe it's something that does need to be fixed.

[Peter]

Ryan Roos

You point out I am complaining, far from it, I was giving my opinion on it, and that is, for me, a rating system doesn't work. If I was complaining, I wouldn't submit my plugins to the library.

I agree that for ProBoards, it's too early for you to say that it doesn't work, I understand that, but again, for me who has used them in the past, it just didn't work, so am stating my opinion.

When I purchase something from Amazon, I don't rely on the number of stars, I read the reviews, but the difference is, reviews can be marked as helpful and also commented on. So if you see a bad review, you can see what others are saying to that review, or if other people find it helpful. Right now (yes, I know it's early days, but again, my opinion on the system), it doesn't work for me.

[Ryan Roos]

May 10, 2013 11:28:33 GMT -8 Peter said:

Ryan Roos

You point out I am complaining, far from it, I was giving my opinion on it, and that is, for me, a rating system doesn't work. If I was complaining, I wouldn't submit my plugins to the library.

I agree that for ProBoards, it's too early for you to say that it doesn't work, I understand that, but again, for me who has used them in the past, it just didn't work, so am stating my opinion.

When I purchase something from Amazon, I don't rely on the number of stars, I read the reviews, but the difference is, reviews can be marked as helpful and also commented on. So if you see a bad review, you can see what others are saying to that review, or if other people find it helpful. Right now (yes, I know it's early days, but again, my opinion on the system), it doesn't work for me.

I knew you were going to focus on the word complaining. I think you let that skew my reply. You weren't complaining then, I'm sorry. You were voicing your negative opinion about something we just started using.

You're absolutely right about Amazon. It's entirely possible that we will improve the star rating system and reviews with something like that in the future. But I think it's really hard for you to argue with the law of averages when it comes to star reviews. Over time an accurate representation of the perception of the library item is going to emerge. Will that be the case when everything has less than three reviews? No. But in a month or two when things really start getting used and more people discover the libraries then yes. We haven't even converted all forums to v5 yet!

And honestly you didn't present a better alternative. The thumbs up thumbs down is the equivalent of the star ratings but if we said you can only rate things 1 star or 5 star. That doesn't help anyone. And there's no measure in side by side comparison. If there are 2 sidebar plugins I want to see how they measure up against each other. When you look at youTube videos you have no gauge of how useful something is. Binary systems are for liking things, not for rating their quality. Everything online that is worth it's salt uses a numbered rating system, whether it be stars or just a 1-10 score. Because that tells you in a side by side comparison what is best when compared with other similar things. And the reviews let users go farther in disregarding the one bad review here or there that might just be someone trolling.

Are we done developing the system? Never. But I haven't heard an alternate idea yet to make it even better. Though you have pointed out complimentary ideas like helpful reviews. You've likely just strengthened the star and review system.

EDIT: Let me add this. You are someone who is producing outstanding content. [/compliment] I don't understand why you dislike a system in which you are likely going to dominate the competition.

EDIT2: If I apply what you're saying to only themes then I think I could almost agree with you. But only because themes are so subjective. Do you like the theme? Binary answer. But a plugin is far more than that. Does it do what it claims? Do it do that well? Does it have the options the competition does? Was it easy to use? Could I get support? Etc. Etc. Etc. With so many things needing to be answered or considered you can't simply slap a 'yes!' on it. Because maybe Sidebar Plugin #1 is Good, but Sidebar Plugin #2 is amazing. You need a system in which those 2 things appear different from one another. You need a system that motivates the author to improve things. I don't know of a better way to do that then lettering people tell you.

[Peter]

May 10, 2013 11:46:39 GMT -8 Ryan Roos said:

May 10, 2013 11:28:33 GMT -8 Peter said:

Ryan Roos

You point out I am complaining, far from it, I was giving my opinion on it, and that is, for me, a rating system doesn't work. If I was complaining, I wouldn't submit my plugins to the library.

I agree that for ProBoards, it's too early for you to say that it doesn't work, I understand that, but again, for me who has used them in the past, it just didn't work, so am stating my opinion.

When I purchase something from Amazon, I don't rely on the number of stars, I read the reviews, but the difference is, reviews can be marked as helpful and also commented on. So if you see a bad review, you can see what others are saying to that review, or if other people find it helpful. Right now (yes, I know it's early days, but again, my opinion on the system), it doesn't work for me.

I knew you were going to focus on the word complaining. I think you let that skew my reply. You weren't complaining then, I'm sorry. You were voicing your negative opinion about something we just started using.

Right there just pisses me off with the sarcasm. 

While I agree with some of your previous points, I still get that feeling that all you are trying to do, is belittle me.

For me, 1 star or 5 star is better.  As someone who are been writing codes for ProBoards for nearly 8 years, perfection is my goal, so if it's not 5 stars, I'm not interested, this is why I like the "Like" system, people either like it, or not, if they don't, then I know that something is seriously wrong with my ability to create a good plugin.

But whatever, you see me as complaining, so I will refrain from giving my opinion on things that I have used in the past.

[Ryan Roos]

Okay, I am sincerely apologizing to you. I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. For real. Not sarcastic right now. I was trying to be humorous because I thought things got way to serious. We're just having a conversation. Nothing was meant as an insult. So let me say right now. I'm sorry. For reals. Sorry.

I was not trying to belittle you. You are someone on this forum who I view as an equal, and in some ways my better. At no point was I talking down to you or at you. Again I apologize if you felt that way.

At no point in any of my posts to you was I trying to be rude or mean. I was being lighthearted and funny. I'm sorry if you are having a bad day or if my posts are coming off any different to you. They are in no way meant that way.

You are in every way entitled to your opinion and I do want to hear it. I do not see you as complaining. I did (underlined did) think you were a bit premature to start criticizing something that hasn't even got off the ground yet. Something we worked hard on. Again, no insult meant by me using the word criticizing. Voicing your opinion. However you want me to say it that you hear my tone is positive while stating what factually happened (that was not sarcastic, now I literally am hearing everything I'm typing in that tone. Right here is where I would type a tongue sticking out face, but I think that's the wrong one, see below.) However at the same time I need to explain why we are doing things the way we are. I explain things in detail to avoid future explanation to others who may be sitting there reading things and wondering the next question. If I went into too much explanation I am sorry. I do tend to ramble on (this paragraph for example).

I sincerely was complimenting you (before you even posted your last reply).

It has been mentioned to me before, but when I see this >>> I see funny. But apparently people here on support see this >>> and think smart butt. I hate that apparently in the past people have ruined that smiley. I'm open to a suggestion of which smiley means funny, since that is the one I always use and yet always get negative blowback from.

[Peter]

I appreciate the apology. I understand where you are coming from, and are just defending the hard work put into it, so I get that, and have been there.

I apologise if you read my 2 posts on page 3 as me complaining, maybe I wasn't constructive enough, maybe I should have pointed out what I liked as well, which I didn't think about at the time of posting.

I agree that it maybe was too soon to post about it, but when you have used rating systems for a long time, generally they are all the same, so that's why I did, though hopefully my other suggestions I made will be took into consideration in future meetings, as they would improve the system greatly for me.

Thanks for the compliment, it's rare to see that from staff

As for the tongue smiley; yeah, I tend to not use it in posts such as above, as I never know how people take to it. For me, I didn't know if you were trying to make it less serious, or were just laughing at me, it's hard to know because people in the past have used it for different things. Generally, I see funny, but it depends on the post

But anyway, all is good

[Wormopolis]

I just had to make a review on my own plugin to tell people to come here for support...

suggestion: make a spot in the plugin submission form that stores a support thread topic somewhere that they CAN click instead of just saying "this plugin doesnt work" without providing me any sort of URL to look to see why...

[Tim Camara]

Wormopolis - Ryan and I were actually discussing that possibility this morning when this first came up.  Also remember you can always update your plugin to have the information in the description in the meantime.

[Wormopolis]

May 10, 2013 15:44:44 GMT -8 Tim Camara said:

Wormopolis - Ryan and I were actually discussing that possibility this morning when this first came up.  Also remember you can always update your plugin to have the information in the description in the meantime.

true... except then I have to go back and re-upload all the images and choose all the categories again...  so I have to weigh the desire there.  I would probably just wait until I had an actual update to the plugin before I updated it then...

[Stinky666]

May 10, 2013 17:18:02 GMT -8 Wormopolis said:

May 10, 2013 15:44:44 GMT -8 Tim Camara said:

Wormopolis - Ryan and I were actually discussing that possibility this morning when this first came up.  Also remember you can always update your plugin to have the information in the description in the meantime.

true... except then I have to go back and re-upload all the images and choose all the categories again...  so I have to weigh the desire there.  I would probably just wait until I had an actual update to the plugin before I updated it then...

It's the same for themes and I need to update my themes, but wont do until I don't have to input all the data (images especially) again - it doesn't even remember the tags for crying out loud

[Former Member]

What I'd like to know is if I install a plugin from my admin panel -> library, how will I know if a later version is released?

[Wormopolis]

May 10, 2013 22:15:28 GMT -8 @ritab said:

What I'd like to know is if I install a plugin from my admin panel -> library, how will I know if a later version is released?

rumor is you will see some sort of indication (maybe in admin panel or PM) that a plugin has been updated.  I might just be wishful thinking though...

[Former Member]

I hope the rumour is true Wormopolis!

[Stinky666]

May 10, 2013 22:15:28 GMT -8 @ritab said:

What I'd like to know is if I install a plugin from my admin panel -> library, how will I know if a later version is released?

May 10, 2013 22:27:56 GMT -8 Wormopolis said:

May 10, 2013 22:15:28 GMT -8 @ritab said:

What I'd like to know is if I install a plugin from my admin panel -> library, how will I know if a later version is released?

rumor is you will see some sort of indication (maybe in admin panel or PM) that a plugin has been updated.  I might just be wishful thinking though...

I have a thread for this where Michael has responded:
support.proboards.com/thread/463150/suggestion-plugins

[Former Member]

That's good Stinky666 - thanks for the link.