Ethics of Requiring Further Software to Join a PB Forum?

[Willow]

So in my never ending quest to find a RP to join and support I came across and weird situation today.

I came across a PB forum that part of the requirement of joining is that you have to download skype and participate in live chats via skype

I understand that no one is forcing me to join the site (which I didn't) but this got me to thinking. Is this really ethical as a site admin? Keep in mind, you HAVE to participate in Skype chats to belong to this RP site, there is no opt out.

There is a lot of personal information that one gives up using Skype to live chat, including images of yourself that anyone can take captures of during any live conversations. I find this while notion a bit creepy if not scary, especially considering children as young as 14 can belong to this site.

Also, it seems to me that PB is mostly text based RP and making a members download additional software is at least troublesome.  First, using Skype requires a true broadband connection and some people esp mobile users might have issues with this. Also, it again uses more computer resources that some people may have a hard time with.

Lastly, I wonder about the legal prospects. Say for example, a minor child is stalked or worse because she/he caught the attention of some predator on this RP site due to the use of live Skype conversations, that again was required to use the PB site.  Could PB could be drug into some sort of civil action?

Thoughts? 

[Kami]

Personally I would have the PB abuse department look into that so they can determine if this is an action permissible within the tos.

As a general idea though? I see nothing wrong with it provided that the forum limit its / proboards' liability and extend protections towards minor-aged users. There are a variety of legit reasons to require something like this so as a whole the concept is not necessarily a negative one.

The requirement may exist for social endeavours like team sports / game clans, or even school based forums. Or perhaps even just to coordinate site happenings.

The crux of that opinion though, as i said, rests on whether or not the site is responsible enough to vet their membership + protect their users and assume any liability.

I'm not a lawyer so this isn't legal advice but my understanding is that if it is permissible within the ToS liability falls with only the forum. But, depending on how the terms of the forum are presented ( rules etc ) they could use that as a basis to fight any liability suits. For example, saying that registrants certify by registering that they have parental permission to use Skype / etc may be able to limit how much, if any, responsibility the site bears if anything untoward happens.

TLDR i don't find it unethical, but it has the potential to be so if not properly handled.

[Willow]

Nov 16, 2016 19:11:46 GMT -8 Kami said:

 There are a variety of legit reasons to require something like this so as a whole the concept is not necessarily a negative one.

I am curious to what you think may be a legit reason for this requirement in a RP forum?

[Kami]

Nov 16, 2016 19:14:38 GMT -8 Willow said:

Nov 16, 2016 19:11:46 GMT -8 Kami said:

 There are a variety of legit reasons to require something like this so as a whole the concept is not necessarily a negative one.

I am curious to what you think may be a legit reason for this requirement in a RP forum?

I edited my post for further clarification but I am not speaking solely about RP forums, but rather forums as a whole. I am attempting to avoid giving advice about this specific forum because we are discussing ethics about an action which may or may not be limited to a particular site and i'm trying to avoid turning this into a support board thread (as discussing a specific site's actions only is not really managing your forum type of a topic) (:

For example if I started a forum specifically for my League of Legends group I would absolutely require them to download Discord so we can coordinate our ranked games as a team through voice chat. That said my entire team is comprised of adults 25+ and I would not accept membership from children.

[Willow]

Nov 16, 2016 19:19:15 GMT -8 Kami said:

Nov 16, 2016 19:14:38 GMT -8 Willow said:

I am curious to what you think may be a legit reason for this requirement in a RP forum?

I edited my post for further clarification but I am not speaking solely about RP forums, but rather forums as a whole. I am attempting to avoid giving advice about this specific forum because we are arguing ethics about an action which may or may not be limited to a particular site.

I can see legit reasons for requiring Skye. For example if you are running some type of business networking site or even say a site that brings nanny's and potential employers together.

But, as far an entertainment site goes, ANYONE can start a PB site. Doctors, Joe Public and lets say "people of unethical scruples".  I have a teenage daughter and would never allow her to use a RP site that requires live skype chat. Hell, like I said above I wouldn't join it. It just sets off all sorts of red flags for me. And in all honesty, the site where I saw it, it's probably very innocent and adds to the RP experience but still, that nagging voice in the back of my head was like "STAY AWAY".

[Kami]

Nov 16, 2016 19:26:16 GMT -8 Willow said:

Nov 16, 2016 19:19:15 GMT -8 Kami said:

I edited my post for further clarification but I am not speaking solely about RP forums, but rather forums as a whole. I am attempting to avoid giving advice about this specific forum because we are arguing ethics about an action which may or may not be limited to a particular site.

I can see legit reasons for requiring Skye. For example if you are running some type of business networking site or even say a site that brings nanny's and potential employers together.

But, as far an entertainment site goes, ANYONE can start a PB site. Doctors, Joe Public and lets say "people of unethical scruples".  I have a teenage daughter and would never allow her to use a RP site that requires live skype chat. Hell, like I said above I wouldn't join it. It just sets off all sorts of red flags for me. And in all honesty, the site where I saw it, it's probably very innocent and adds to the RP experience but still, that nagging voice in the back of my head was like "STAY AWAY".

And that is your prerogative. But we are discussing ethics, not personal feelings. Ethically speaking it is not *inherently* unethical for a forum to have this requirement but has the *potential* to be unethical.

To counter your example about it being unnecessary for entertainment sites (since i edited my post and it was missed): is it inherently unethical for me to require applicants to my League if Legends team forum to require Discord so we can communicate as a team? What about if i limit who can join my team to 25+?

it is not unethical for me to have these requirements simply for them existing.

That is what i am saying.

[Kami]

Also don't confuse ethics with responsibility. They frequently go hand in hand but they are not mutually exclusive.

it may be ethical to do X but can still be done irresponsibility leading to a negative consequence. that doesn't make X any more or less ethical.

[Willow]

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Nov 16, 2016 19:30:15 GMT -8 Kami said:

Nov 16, 2016 19:26:16 GMT -8 Willow said:

I can see legit reasons for requiring Skye. For example if you are running some type of business networking site or even say a site that brings nanny's and potential employers together.

But, as far an entertainment site goes, ANYONE can start a PB site. Doctors, Joe Public and lets say "people of unethical scruples".  I have a teenage daughter and would never allow her to use a RP site that requires live skype chat. Hell, like I said above I wouldn't join it. It just sets off all sorts of red flags for me. And in all honesty, the site where I saw it, it's probably very innocent and adds to the RP experience but still, that nagging voice in the back of my head was like "STAY AWAY".

And that is your prerogative. But we are discussing ethics, not personal feelings. Ethically speaking it is not *inherently* unethical for a forum to have this requirement but has the *potential* to be unethical.

To counter your example about it being unnecessary for entertainment sites (since i edited my post and it was missed): is it inherently unethical for me to require applicants to my League if Legends team forum to require Discord so we can communicate as a team? What about if i limit who can join my team to 25+?

it is not unethical for me to have these requirements simply for them existing.

That is what i am saying.

I am not legally familiar with every aspect of PB ToS but I wonder if they address this issue about additional software that can be used for unethical reasons.

As far as it being "unethical" for someone to require Dicord, probably not. But I do think its intrusive and adds something that some users may have technical or moral issues using. I have had to file a restraining order due to someone I met on a site similar to skype back when I was more naive to such things. Which combined with some professional and personal reasons, having my voice or image recorded/captured without my consent (which anyone can do with these programs) are IMO too intrusive for something like a PB RP site.


But are these requirements "unethical"? That may come down to a matter of opinion. I think at the very least they are intrusive but like you not so sure if they are actually unethical.

As far as your scenario of having members be 25+?  I am not sure how ethical it is, but I can say with the right person you could be opening yourself to a legal action as age discrimination. As far as I know, there are not legal requirements in the US for someone to be any older than 21 to engage in activities with other consenting adults.* And they very least even if the legal action would fail, it could cause you money and grief to defend if someone was so inclined. With many states and federally age discrimination is heavily protected and frowned upon.

*There are exceptions to this. For example, car rental companies can require renters to be 24+ but they have had to get special consideration and show through the courts the statistical reasons for their discrimination. I don't think someone running a PB forum could show how a 23 year old is reasonably that much worse of a RP-er than a 25 year old.

[Kami]

We're not talking about ethics anymore if you start talking about whether or not i can be sued. (Additionally, barring registration age is because of the group restriction off the forum being all over a certain age and we have no vetting process to protect younger users).

So are you talking about ethics or legalities? Just because something is ethical doesn't mean it's legal and vice versa.

Also personal reservations are not indicative of ethics. if you don't wish to download discord you cannot be part of our TEAM in a TEAM GAME since you won't be able to communicate with your TEAMMATES. if you find that intrusive then that's not a problem with our requirement being unethical! We cannot function as a team without realtime verbal communication so it's absolutely a deal breaker for joining our group if you refuse to download discord. If you were being harassed or something that we did nothing about, that is when we cross the line to irresponsibility .

[» Poe the Villain]

I am not really for or against requiring something like Skype, but I do require it for my staff members for us to have private chats. I also have my skype information public on my site so that people can contact me should they need me. So, I have never required a member to have skype.

I just wanted to point out with Skype that there are ways to hide your identity. I do not use an avatar of my face, I do not use my real name in any of the information boxes, and I do not disclose my location aside from my timezone. These are things that Skype doesn't have access to, so no one else would either. Other important information is set to private through Skypes Privacy settings. So, the risks involved can be fairly small.

This is of course depending on what you are talking about, because I use Skype as a chat service and never use it as a video call service. If they are requiring video calls I like Kami wonder if this is a violation of ToS.