Mary sue situation

[chronicler2000]

Hi there so I have a situation that I was wondering what to do if you discover that someone has a mary sue on your forum?
I wouldn't call the character an extreme mary sue but they caused havoc in the cbox and the attention has to be AROUND THEM.


I am an admin on the site, and I figured out a couple of things and we were wondering how to deal with the character. We have sent her messages asking her to stop doing things that were not ok like hurting other characters with this scream power she has. Her character has scream powers and minor psychic abilities. But she has used the scream powers to break windows and it seems out of the blue whenever they do it. This seems far too strong for what she wrote down on her application if you ask me.

Other things why I think we're dealing with a mary sue:

1) sad horrible history where they're an orphan.

2) Hardly any weaknesses.

3) hasn't played her powers like they are in the application the scream powers and psychic abilities are much stronger than they appear.

4) Attractive woman picture for their avatar image.

5) Doesn't act like her personality in the 'shy and quiet type.' they act more like a talkative center of attention person in roleplay. 

[wildmaven]

1. We get this a lot on my site, too. As long as they don't always reference their orphan-hood and have it be a constant source of angst, I don't have a problem with it.

2. Yeah, all-powerful characters really limit the ability of others to interact with them in fights.

3. You need to put a stop to this, asap. Define the limits and have her stick to them.

4. All avatars for females are of attractive females. It's just part of the way people RP. They want to RP good looking characters.

5. Same as #3.

Basically, you or someone who can handle this with impartial, calm words needs to have a talk with her. Feel free to use this, from my board:

Why won't anyone RP with me? 15 Reasons.
=============================
This may be reposted elsewhere, if this header is kept intact. (c)Marian Murdoch aka "wildmaven",
=============================

Sometimes it is hard to see the reason people are reluctant to RP with you. Even veterans of RPing can find themselves faced with this question. Below are several reasons.

1. Did you create a thread that no other character can reasonably find a way to get their character involved in it? This frequently happens when characters are in a thread in their room. Why would someone come visit your character there, especially if your character is new? Room threads only really work if you have pre-arranged with another character to write a thread there.

2. Are you constantly whining or complaining in the chat box or off-topic threads? If you don't look like fun, people are more likely to stay away.

3. Do you frequently write walls of text in RPs, but, when you look at it, all the other character has to reply to was your character saying, "fine"?

4. Speaking of walls of text, take a look at your writing style. If you are writing really long paragraphs, most people will skip ahead. Break it up a bit with some dialog. The eye hates long paragraphs. Take a look at how novels are written and you'll seldom see such walls of text.

5. Do you frequently post and then disappear for a week? Why would someone want to start a thread with you?

6. Is your character always sad? Yes, every character will have moments of sadness or other emotions, but if the only emotion your character has shown is sadness or grumpiness, there is no depth. Even if you're writing in a high school RP, there needs to be more to your character than bad emotions.

7. Do you constantly make mistakes about what has happened previously? If you are going to enter a thread, it is important to know where the other players are standing, what they are doing. I've been in RPs were one of my characters had a blaster wound to his leg, but when the doctor came in, it suddenly changed it to a minor flesh wound of the abdomen. Who wants to RP with someone who can't even keep something like that straight? Know what is happening.

8. Do you take things too personally? Remember, these are characters. If someone's character is mad at your character, that doesn't mean that character's writer is mad at you. You don't think Luke Skywalker's actor got mad at Darth Vader's actor for cutting off the character's hand, do you? Same goes for writing in an RP. It's not personal.

9. Have you shown a preference for only writing with certain people? Avoid a cliquish attitude and RP with many different characters.

10. Is your character only around when something romantic happens? Romance is fun to write, but gets old quickly. Show more depth to your character. Even the most romantic couples still have lives that take place outside of the love affair. Don't make your character into a bad romance novel heroine.

11. Are you overly descriptive? Some literary embellishment is great. However, we do not want to read that "her eyelashes were as fine as mink, long and supple, able to seduce with a single blink of the eye." I mean, come on!

12. Do you write bad dialog? When writing something that your character is saying, ask yourself if someone in real life would have said it that way. When was the last time you heard someone saying, "I lust for you, my angel." (ok... probably in a bad vampire book, but let's get real) If you're not sure about a line, say it out loud.

13. Do you think faster than your fingers can type? This can produce text such as, "he wanted to see if she could then he went to her and oh her eyes were like limpid pools of water was what he wanted." Er... yeah.

14. Spell check spell check spell check! We all make mistakes. However, if your post is filled with bad spelling and grammar errors, who is going to want to wade through that?

15. Do you step on threads? This can happen if there is an established thread going on and you suddenly come in and change the dynamic. Heck, I've done this on more than one occasion out of excitement. It is best to ask first if the other parties mind you joining, even if the Tag says "any", especially if you don't personally know the other writer well. This can eliminate hard feelings. As an "any" thread gets going, 'thread stomping' is more likely to happen than if you had joined right at the start. Once momentum gets going, it is probably a good idea to ask first.

============================================================================
A Guide to Role Playing by wildmaven (Marian Murdoch):

1. Perfect characters are boring. Make your character unique. Everyone has flaws, so create some for your character.

2. Don't make your character invincible or always save the day. This is no fun for the other members and is a good way to freeze a storyline.

3. If your character isn't included in a current plot, don't just hang around complaining you're bored. Do something! PM another character who is also idle and get together.

4. Don't start storylines alone, hoping someone will join you. These never go well.

5. If you see a storyline already going on, PM those involved and ask if they would mind if you jumped in. Of course, if a title of a thread says (open) or the original poster has tagged it to "Any", feel free to jump in without asking.

6. Don't describe everything about your character in your first post. Leave some mystery.

7. Always leave openings for the other person. This is essential to keeping a plotline going.

8. Don't just repeat everything that just happened. Write your characters responses to it, yes, but don't recap everything.

9. Always stay in the character of your creation. Don't suddenly make them something their applications didn't outline.

10. Stay within your character's culture/literacy/etc., unless there's a really good reason for them to fall out of it.

11. Don't create a major plot which can affect everyone without discussing it with an admin first. They have plans for this journey.

12. When creating a character, ask yourself if this character is self-limiting. Will there be opportunities for good interaction with the other crew? Or will this character be sitting around, waiting for something to happen most of the time. This can happen when you create a character with a very specialized job.

13. Read the other threads. It helps you keep an eye on what's going on, and will be helpful when you interact with other characters.

14. If you are going to be off for a while, write your character out of the scene. It's not fair to the other players if your character all of a sudden drops out of a major plotline.

15. Before deciding to create a new character, ask yourself if you've devoted enough time on your current character. Have you taken the time to develop them, played them well, and had good interactions with other characters. If not, how do you expect to do so with your new character?

[chronicler2000]

I agree with a lot of this, thanks for the info!

For the powers we are probably going to have to tell her upfront, I don't think we can do much about the avatar, since attractive people are all around on sites.

1) It's not ok to scream at everything or hurt other characters without them asking for it first.

2) Same for characters entering their minds, some have had no experience with psychic abilities and are uncomfortable, or don't want someone proding around in it.

I consider this still open if anyone else adds to it that'd be appreciated.

[Skidjit]

 chronicler2000

I remember when I first started roleplaying, we had rules much like Wildmaven's.

When I first found a cool group and asked if I could join, they said I had to audition. Since, I was new to the website and could not point to anything I've done thusfar, they gave me two weeks to prove myself. If I didn't make it, tough luck to me. These guys were worth it. They had a ball every night. 

The only reason they had to start this audition rule in the first place was that fact some kids were doing outrageous things like, suddenly creating dragons and dropping them through the roof of the house, or hurting other people's character without asking that person beforehand. Also, we had a rule about not going against canon. Pretty much that person was taking over and had to be stopped. 

Come to think of it, one of my very early roles were violent dragons. I had people left and right (in that same RP group that I just joined) sending me messages, asking if I would set fire to their cloak or their arm. So, I did. I never set fire to anyone unless they asked me first and never to where they were really on fire. Goodness. This sounds bad. LOL! -

Now, getting back to YOU. Do you have rules about violence? Some people might consider psychic abilities to invade another's mind without their permission is sort of a type of violent gesture. Just something to think about, like you mentioned earlier talking it over beforehand with the other character's creator is a good idea.

Is it too late to say that you have a trial period and that it's just not working out like you hoped? Do you have more than one roleplay going on at your site?


edited to add: Auditioning is also a good way to see just how a person would play their character. Maybe on a on a different thread away from the main group at first for a while. 

I've been told that people don't RP the way I used to anymore. I have not done any in years. I would not know how it's done these days. Hope something I said might help. 

[chronicler2000]

I've never considered doing an audition before. To be honest this does sound like an interesting way of doing things. We get just a tiny bit of an idea on how people write with the apps we have. In fact would a roleplay sample included in the app be sort of the same thing? It gives you an idea of how they roleplay and if it is wrong we can try to correct them.

But for the most part the only thing we have on rules towards violence is the death rule where 'death is final' and the other part to add to it is the site is PG 13 based since proboards requires that. Is there any way we can expand on that? Saying that violence needs to be discussed between roleplayers in a thread? I see psychic abilities being one where if you enter your mind it's like reading your most important secrets, thoughts, memories or anything else you have in there. Sort of like hacking into your brain. I have seen her use the psychic abilities to me in rp (me being an admin and I told her up front no, not so close) and then she did it again on another admin too. ono'

But I suppose this is a start I think you put a good point that people don't rp like us any more lol. I've been roleplaying about 7 or so years now and things have probably changed by now?

[Skidjit]

chronicler2000

I guess an audition would show how a person would interact with another member's character and vice versus. Some actors click where others don't.

The reason my dragons held back their violence was due to the fact we were on a children's website. They had hired outside company to police the site to make sure everyone was safe. If I played my dragons true to their nature I could have been banned from the site. Eek. It was a challenge. So for our group, some violence was held back for that reason and some was just purely out of respect for the other friends in the rp group.

Come to think of it, that website did give us chances. If a person didn't respect the rules of the site they were given a warning. Maybe doing that just for the RP ONLY? If they continue to ignore the RP rules or requests a second warning could be given. If they get a third, it gets them kicked out of the RP. This would be warnings for the RP not for getting banned from your website. I never thought of something like that. The could be on probation. They could hang around your site, maybe start some other RP thread where someone later might give them a chance to redeem them self and others could see. This could give them a chance to settle down, learn from their mistakes and soon join back in.

(I started RPing since early 2000's. just for a few years.)

[chronicler2000]

Heay there Skid! Good news is I talked to the other staff member on this and they are familiar/agreed with the type of auditions as well. We have also used the three strike rule in the past on the site if they have done things like breaking the rules more than once they had a chance to redeem themselves. And if not on the third time they'd be banned permanently.

Though we agreed that two weeks might be too long for any member who planned on joining we thought maybe 3-5 or even a little more than that might work to get an idea on how they roleplay. This would especially work with canons.

Oh and I can mention that this is a Marvel/Super hero type roleplay as well so we all have powers there canons and ocs are allowed for that.

[Skidjit]

Oh cool! I'm a huge Marvel/Super hero fan here. I just watched Ragnarok again yesterday with my son. Finally, saw Black Panther last week and loved it. We here in my house can't wait for Infinity Wars.

Anyway, third time would be banned permanently? Ouch. Well, I guess sometimes some people can cross the lines too far. I hope everything works out well for you guys. Have fun.



(OH and my roleplays were all pretty much in the Harry Potter world, even though I'm a fan of many others as well.) 

[chronicler2000]

Yeah it's sort of like a 'what if' board for Marvel. Say some other possible histories on characters, or Ultron never happened. I think that is a lot of creativity towards the players at least. ^^ But yeah I've seen the Black Panther movie too it was great!

And that's pretty much what the admins agreed on but I think it'd have to be something really serious to be on the third or final ban.

Anyways thank you for the help it was a lot and I was surprised by the offers!

(I've done a handful of Harry Potter roleplays, on and off they, were a lot of fun if you ask me so I understand why you like them. ^^)

[wildmaven]

Because this thread will be helpful to others who run an RP, this thread has been moved to the Open for Discussion board. Great help, everyone!

[Kami]

I think I'm the odd one out here. I think the concept of 'Mary Sue' is ridiculous. I mean, I haven't always, but the more I roleplay the more I hate the term because it tends to be applied to characters made by someone who fits one or more (but usually all) of the following criteria:

1. Someone who wants to put "themselves" into the story, not to be the centre of attention but because they want to live in-universe vicariously through their OC
2. An inexperienced roleplayer
3. Someone who is very eager to participate as much as possible

Personally, I welcome people with such an enthusiasm to participate with open arms, and my advice is to work with them. Ideally, this happens during the application process, but it doesn't sound like you have one. I recommend adding one, that way you can catch any applications with 'sad horrible histories' and 'hardly any weaknesses' before they're accepted. (Or if you do have an app process, I think your #1 and #2 are entirely on you).

You say you've asked them to stop, but it doesn't sound like you've sat down and tried to have an actual conversation with them. Their behaviour seems like they just really want to RP and make friends, based on your own descriptions of the situation:

but they caused havoc in the cbox and the attention has to be AROUND THEM

I agree this needs to stop right away, because it's disruptive to the flow and harmony of the forum.

That said, this is for me a big flag that someone doesn't really know the kind of atmosphere an RP has, or that they came from an RP that had this sort of atmosphere.  This type of behaviour tends to indicate that the player wants to feel included and doesn't know how to "break in" to the circle of already-established players, so they wind up acting out in an effort to seem interesting and get people to talk to them.

It's not 100% the case, but I found it to be applicable more often than not in the last 13 years.

stop doing things that were not ok like hurting other characters with this scream power she has.

I think experienced RPers take it for granted that others know what godmoding is, or what passes for godmoding under our specific expectations. This sounds like they're either not aware of it, or was part of an RP where that wasn't considered godmoding due to the nature of superhero powers. Or even perhaps, they were reading other threads and misconstrued cases where both parties were in agreement that a character would be hurt, without any public discussions about it.

But she has used the scream powers to break windows and it seems out of the blue whenever they do it.  

Doesn't act like her personality in the 'shy and quiet type.' they act more like a talkative center of attention person in roleplay.  

These two things for me really drive home the inexperience. I have seen countless of people behave this way because my RP was either their first RP as a whole, or their first structured play-by-post RP. As a whole, these tactics aren't selfish, but rather a misguided attempt to try and keep the RP interesting. Outbursts of power give other players something to react to, physically and emotionally. Talkative, "look at me!" behaviour gives both them and their partners engaging content to exchange information about their characters. They may want to play a "shy" type, but if they're unfamiliar with how to do that and still give the other participants something to respond to (or aren't very good at it), then they may resort to this behaviour to keep the RP 'alive'.

Does it go against more seasoned RP expectations? Absolutely! Is it intended to disrupt your forum and be all ~Mary Sue~? Probably not.

If it were me, I'd handle this under the assumption that the player is inexperienced, or not as experienced as the rest of the forum overall, and would likely send a message along these lines:

Hey ___________, I've been noticing your posts around the forum and I really want to thank you for your participation and eagerness to RP with us! It's players like you that keep us going.

I'd really like to spend some one-on-one time working with you to make your stories more collaborative. Think of roleplaying as "interactive storytelling" -- we are all telling different aspects of the same story, and that means we all have to be on the same page when we play. Some of your recent posts have been less collaborative and more character-focused, and I'd appreciate it if we could work together to change that moving forward.

Lastly, a reminder that the forum chat is meant to be a fun method of quick communication. Let others have the chance to chat, if things start becoming too heated, take a small break and step away from the chat for a while.

Thanks again for your participation, and I look forward to hearing back from you!

Sincerely,
[Your Name]

The reason I'd handle it like this, rather than giant walls of text, is that a) those can be overwhelming, especially for new players, and b) some of the BEST roleplayers I have had over the years were kids who had no idea what was going on (I mean they're all adults now, but they were just little kids back then). Immediately chastising them because they're not following RP conventions will only kill whatever spark they have.

Obviously if the behaviour continues or they're belligerent about it then you should definitely be harsher and less understanding about it, but I would recommend giving this a go first.

[Skidjit]

chronicler2000

Glad I could be of some help. It's all about having fun after all.

Kami

Hey there, it's been a while. It's been a while since we talked.... well since I've been online here. To be honest, I saw Chronicler's and Wildmaven's posts first and read them on the recent posts link. I hadn't even noticed the name of the thread at that point. I then clicked on it to backread before I made my first comment. I've heard of the term "Mary Sue" ages ago and never could make any sense of it so I just shrugged it off back then as I did here. I just commented here to the comments made, not so much the name of the thread.

My own personal thoughts on Chronicler's few comments, I couldn't help but wonder if the person (not character) in question might be very very young or perhaps a newbie. Sounds like you thought the same. If it's all about those with experience having patience with the newbie.

I'm very thankful for my friend group, who took me under their wing, showed me the ropes, and had patience with me. I was very green in my early days. I in turn remembered that and gave that back to those who came up years behind me the best that I could. I feel it was worth it. Very rewarding to witness especially if they have talent. Still, it takes time. Sometimes smaller RP's are stepping stones to work on to get to the bigger ones. Side stories can support the main storyline too.

[Kami]

Skidjit - "mary sue" is shorthand for a character (usually female) that is a self insert of the author, with limited flaws if any, who has the story revolve around her. It originated from a satirical / joke fanfiction (for star trek i believe) where the character with these traits was called mary sue.

since then its become basically "a self insert" character and has been applied very liberally across media particularly to female characters (Rey from the new star wars has been called this for example). there is a fair degree of misogyny in the term in general, and you see accusations of "gary stu" (the male equivalent) far, far less.

in RP i find it silly. of course we want self inserts. if we didnt want to be in this universe we wouldnt be RPing in it. and for many, esp novice RPers (regardless of age), its the easiest way to learn to rp. even now all of my OCs are technicaly mary sues (theyre all based on different aspects of my personalities and hopes and dreams). i just learned how to play well with others.

anyway, thats a bit of a side bar, but ultimately "mary sues" are considered incompatible with RP because people with mary sues tend to not understand how to collaborate with other writers. but ive found that this generally correlates directly with the amount of experience they have had / the kind of RPs theyve experienced.

[Skidjit]

Kami

OK. I get where you're coming from.

She needs more flaws to add to her character to make her more believable.

She could also do with a more practice communicating with her costars. Still, with time, a newbie could blossom. I never really want to give up on someone too soon. I've known some major pain in the rear's who have come a long way to surprise us all. A good way to make great friends.

[Kami]

Apr 12, 2018 14:27:41 GMT -8 Skidjit said:

Kami

OK. I get where you're coming from.

She needs more flaws to add to her character to make her more believable.

She could also do with a more practice communicating with her costars. Still, with time, a newbie could blossom. I never really want to give up on someone too soon. I've known some major pain in the rear's who have come a long way to surprise us all. A good way to make great friends.

I am in 100% agreement with you. My point was mainly that I don't think this person is a "Mary Sue", mainly because a) I believe they are inexperienced and b) I disagree with the concept of a Mary Sue as a whole, so being frustrated with a person who has created a Mary Sue is a non-issue for me (which is basically what I was saying in my post, I disagree with the advice given because it's centred on the premise of a Mary Sue).