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📚 Dianne 📚
"Never Judge A Book By Its Movie"
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Post by 📚 Dianne 📚 on Nov 24, 2019 6:13:46 GMT -8
www.cnn.com/2019/11/23/us/harvard-yale-climate-protest-trnd/index.htmlMy question is - Should the students that did this and got caught, suffer any punishment such as (not jail) losing any financial help?The reason why I ask is because I was a young "flower child" during the era of protests and if student at that time go caught doing something like this they suffered the consequences and if their cause was just, they (the students) kept up the protests. Then you see what the Kent State fiasco did en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings and you have to wonder. Do student protests change anything?
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Post by User 180565 is taking donation on Nov 24, 2019 7:31:58 GMT -8
Really climate change?
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Post by Retread on Nov 24, 2019 9:10:51 GMT -8
My question is - Should the students that did this and got caught, suffer any punishment such as (not jail) losing any financial help?Why did you take jail off the table? That's certainly an option, if TPTB at Yale want to pursue it by pressing charges. A case could be made for trespassing, and possibly disorderly conduct for some of the individuals. I would guess those who left without incident when escorted off the field by police won't be charged with anything. Those who refused do leave and were arrested probably will be charged (although the charges might be dismissed before they go to court.) In my opinion, Yale will probably elect to minimize any lingering effects of this by not pressing charges. But it depends on whether the students who remained on the field became unruly. Do student protests change anything? Sometimes they bring greater public awareness. In this case, probably not. JMO. The reason why I ask is because I was a young "flower child" during the era of protests Just for you ...
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Post by Derek‽ on Nov 24, 2019 13:51:11 GMT -8
Those protesters did everyone a favor. Ivy League football is horrendously boring. >.> High admission standards and top-tier athleticism don’t always coincide.
As for the protests, what punishment fits their offense? What was the effect of the protests? They wasted some time and embarrassed the schools by reminding everyone that the schools receive funding from fossil fuel companies while also studying the effects of climate change—a potential conflict of interest worth exposing. After all, it was BP and Shell who first discovered the greenhouse effect caused by burning fossil fuels and the disastrous climate change that could result, then they manipulated the interpretations of the findings to fit their preferred narrative that everything was fine... probably. Given this history, the public ought to know when the culprits are funding researchers, even if the money isn’t directly going toward those projects.
So what punishment is appropriate for a sit-in and a little embarrassment? Certainly not jail, that’s too heavy-handed. A loss of financial aid wouldn’t look good for the schools; taking money from Big Oil/Methane and then stripping money from those who sought to “expose” this practice would look messy. What do you do if some of the students don’t receive financial aid through the schools? What if they aren’t all students from either school?
Actions have consequences, but any repercussions should be proportional to the offense. The only real worthwhile action would probably be to ban all the protesters from any sporting events hosted by Yale (and maybe Harvard) and call it a day.
If someone wanted a tit-for-tat scenario, campus police could detain (but not book) the students for no more than an hour to waste their time as they wasted everyone else’s, but it’s a pretty big group and they’d cry bloody murder about a false arrest (even if it isn’t technically an arrest), complete with a call to mumsy and daddykins’ lawyers. None of this would be worth the hassle for Yale, at all. Besides, I would guess that the protesters cleared their schedules for the day, hoping/anticipating arrests.
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Post by daniel on Nov 24, 2019 15:20:53 GMT -8
Oh noes, the humanity!
Unless they injured people or damaged property it doesn't really warrant a significant response.
This is America, after all. Some degree of peaceful protest should be encouraged.
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Post by Pearson on Nov 24, 2019 16:06:52 GMT -8
Put tacks on the field for next time to make them feel welcome with a touch of pointedness!
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Post by User 180565 is taking donation on Nov 24, 2019 17:21:49 GMT -8
Oh noes, the humanity!
Unless they injured people or damaged property it doesn't really warrant a significant response.
This is America, after all. Some degree of peaceful protest should be encouraged.
Peaceful protesting also means doing it legally and letting authorities know its going to happen. Public doesnt always mean you can do whatever you feel like.
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Post by Artemis on Nov 24, 2019 18:16:45 GMT -8
I'm with Derek here; it seems like the appropriate punishment would be something like banning the students from sporting events or something of that sort. All things considered, as far as "disruptive" protests go, this is pretty tame. As for whether student protests change anything, it's hard to look at just student protests, because protests tend to be just one part of a larger movement. Long story short though, yes, they do, and have. It's worth noting that "peaceful" is not always the same as "not disruptive." They kind of have to be disruptive if they want to have an impact.
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Post by Retread on Nov 24, 2019 20:34:50 GMT -8
If someone wanted a tit-for-tat scenario, campus police could detain (but not book) the students for no more than an hour to waste their time as they wasted everyone else’s, but it’s a pretty big group and they’d cry bloody murder about a false arrest (even if it isn’t technically an arrest), complete with a call to mumsy and daddykins’ lawyers. None of this would be worth the hassle for Yale, at all. Besides, I would guess that the protesters cleared their schedules for the day, hoping/anticipating arrests. If one wanted to 'balance the scales' in terms of time wasted ... Roughly 200 protesters wasted roughly 1/2 hour of roughly 40,000 people in attendance in that game. So each of the 200 protesters should have 100 hours of their time wasted. Seems a bit much, though. Actions have consequences, but any repercussions should be proportional to the offense. The only real worthwhile action would probably be to ban all the protesters from any sporting events hosted by Yale (and maybe Harvard) and call it a day. For those who willingly left the stadium when escorted out by police, if their IDs were checked and names recorded, I'd probably put them in a probationary status. If they aren't involved in any other incidents, let them attend the games if they choose to do so. But if they cause further trouble, the ban would take effect because of this incident and another appropriate consequence would result due to the later incident. For those who weren't willing to leave until they were arrested (apparently 42 of them), they've been charged with misdemeanor disorderly conduct, received a court summons and were released. Maybe ban them from attending all sporting events straight up, allow them to have their day in court facing the possibility of fines commensurate with the estimated court costs and assess some amount of community service, or allow them to plead guilty in exchange for no fines and performing half the community service time. EDIT:Oh, and Derek‽ ... Go Blue!
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Post by Graham on Nov 24, 2019 23:55:42 GMT -8
Those protesters did everyone a favor. Ivy League football is horrendously boring. >.> High admission standards and top-tier athleticism don’t always coincide. As for the protests, what punishment fits their offense? What was the effect of the protests? They wasted some time and embarrassed the schools by reminding everyone that the schools receive funding from fossil fuel companies while also studying the effects of climate change—a potential conflict of interest worth exposing. After all, it was BP and Shell who first discovered the greenhouse effect caused by burning fossil fuels and the disastrous climate change that could result, then they manipulated the interpretations of the findings to fit their preferred narrative that everything was fine... probably. Given this history, the public ought to know when the culprits are funding researchers, even if the money isn’t directly going toward those projects. So what punishment is appropriate for a sit-in and a little embarrassment? Certainly not jail, that’s too heavy-handed. A loss of financial aid wouldn’t look good for the schools; taking money from Big Oil/Methane and then stripping money from those who sought to “expose” this practice would look messy. What do you do if some of the students don’t receive financial aid through the schools? What if they aren’t all students from either school? Actions have consequences, but any repercussions should be proportional to the offense. The only real worthwhile action would probably be to ban all the protesters from any sporting events hosted by Yale (and maybe Harvard) and call it a day. If someone wanted a tit-for-tat scenario, campus police could detain (but not book) the students for no more than an hour to waste their time as they wasted everyone else’s, but it’s a pretty big group and they’d cry bloody murder about a false arrest (even if it isn’t technically an arrest), complete with a call to mumsy and daddykins’ lawyers. None of this would be worth the hassle for Yale, at all. Besides, I would guess that the protesters cleared their schedules for the day, hoping/anticipating arrests. Derek's summed it up perfectly for me. Personally at the end of the day its interrupting something less important to raise awareness of something more important, so any outcry is a bit weird tbh.
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📚 Dianne 📚
"Never Judge A Book By Its Movie"
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Post by 📚 Dianne 📚 on Nov 25, 2019 4:13:19 GMT -8
My question is - Should the students that did this and got caught, suffer any punishment such as (not jail) losing any financial help?Why did you take jail off the table? That's certainly an option, if TPTB at Yale want to pursue it by pressing charges. A case could be made for trespassing, and possibly disorderly conduct for some of the individuals. I would guess those who left without incident when escorted off the field by police won't be charged with anything. Those who refused do leave and were arrested probably will be charged (although the charges might be dismissed before they go to court.) In my opinion, Yale will probably elect to minimize any lingering effects of this by not pressing charges. But it depends on whether the students who remained on the field became unruly. Do student protests change anything? Sometimes they bring greater public awareness. In this case, probably not. JMO. The reason why I ask is because I was a young "flower child" during the era of protests Just for you ... I took jail off of the table because these hipsters would think that that was cool, but hit them and their parents in the pocketbook by taking away scholarships, then that may be another thing. It might make these young adults aware that the world KNOWS that they are in trouble pollution wise (and thanks to the "flower-children" for doing a major clean up in America and changing things so much!)
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Post by 📚 Dianne 📚 on Nov 25, 2019 4:23:23 GMT -8
By the way, although the game was only delayed an hour or so and inconvenienced a certain amount of fans that traveled far and wide to see this famous game -what about the televised game and what the ad companies lost?
And it's fine to turn your nose down on and get snarky about something like this game but it's a Thanksgiving tradition for many many people...would you think the same thing if these students did this during the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade?
In my opinion, these days what these students are doing (and add Kaepernick and the others into this too) is NOT to protest it's to be filmed by cellphones and becoming social media stars. These types of protests are becoming amusing to me.
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Post by Capitan on Nov 25, 2019 8:56:11 GMT -8
These students should be applauded for what they did. Climate change is going to kill millions of people unless we do something about it. Do we really want to punish people for using what power they have to try and effect change? Were Harvard or Yale ever going to listen to a bunch of students and divest from fossil fuels (something it is imperative we all do) if they just asked nicely? Should we not be getting up in the faces of people who are willfully pushing this planet towards an ecological crisis? Disrupting their profits? We should be fighting every day to ensure that the future world is one we can all live in, current rules be damned.
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Post by Artemis on Nov 25, 2019 17:30:14 GMT -8
By the way, although the game was only delayed an hour or so and inconvenienced a certain amount of fans that traveled far and wide to see this famous game -what about the televised game and what the ad companies lost? And it's fine to turn your nose down on and get snarky about something like this game but it's a Thanksgiving tradition for many many people...would you think the same thing if these students did this during the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade? In my opinion, these days what these students are doing (and add Kaepernick and the others into this too) is NOT to protest it's to be filmed by cellphones and becoming social media stars. These types of protests are becoming amusing to me. It depends on how you view the issue the people are protesting about, because I think some bias is inevitable there. If you view climate change as an imminent and serious threat, you might say think that if some advertisers lose some money, so what? If you don't, you might think that the more serious of the two problems is the interruption of a Thanksgiving tradition by some attention-seeking students. I know I tend to be one of the former. In the face of increasingly severe global problems I cannot bring myself to care one iota about some big company's advertising dollars. Students have been protesting for decades and decades, though, and if cell phones existed back then, those students would have been recorded too. Whatever the era, the condescension of older generations has been a constant as long as students have been a thing. This would hardly be the first generation to be accused of doing something for attention rather than because of their genuine interest in the subject. Again, we have to look at protests as part of a greater whole, because it's already been proven time and time again that protests do have an impact, just rarely by themselves (which unfortunately makes them easier to dismiss).
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"Never Judge A Book By Its Movie"
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Post by 📚 Dianne 📚 on Nov 26, 2019 6:46:14 GMT -8
By the way, although the game was only delayed an hour or so and inconvenienced a certain amount of fans that traveled far and wide to see this famous game -what about the televised game and what the ad companies lost? And it's fine to turn your nose down on and get snarky about something like this game but it's a Thanksgiving tradition for many many people...would you think the same thing if these students did this during the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade? In my opinion, these days what these students are doing (and add Kaepernick and the others into this too) is NOT to protest it's to be filmed by cellphones and becoming social media stars. These types of protests are becoming amusing to me. It depends on how you view the issue the people are protesting about, because I think some bias is inevitable there. If you view climate change as an imminent and serious threat, you might say think that if some advertisers lose some money, so what? If you don't, you might think that the more serious of the two problems is the interruption of a Thanksgiving tradition by some attention-seeking students. I know I tend to be one of the former. In the face of increasingly severe global problems I cannot bring myself to care one iota about some big company's advertising dollars. Students have been protesting for decades and decades, though, and if cell phones existed back then, those students would have been recorded too. Whatever the era, the condescension of older generations has been a constant as long as students have been a thing. This would hardly be the first generation to be accused of doing something for attention rather than because of their genuine interest in the subject. Again, we have to look at protests as part of a greater whole, because it's already been proven time and time again that protests do have an impact, just rarely by themselves (which unfortunately makes them easier to dismiss). "condescension of older generations" Wow, it was this older generation that did more for the climate than what these 'condescending' younger generations are doing. When this young generation knows what it's like to be shot at and killed for protesting (Kent State), fire hosed, jailed, changed the biased media, etc for what they believe in yet they keep on protesting, then we'll talk. What is going to happen to these special kids is going to be nothing- much like a participation trophy and it will up their cred on social media. This generation does not know anything of real consequences. When this generation knows what to do and does it to get huge companies to clean up from coal to better options, when they force companies to build better and cleaner engines, (damn I miss my V-eights), gas companies to take out the lead to make a less polluting product,when they actually change the laws on their own and not on mom and dad's money - then we'll talk. It's easy to dismiss those that are fading into the background and yes it is easy for me to dismiss what these kids are trying to change-unfortunately I will probably keep dismissing them as long as they don't really fight for what they want, suffer for what they want, do the difficult thing. I mean, please, keep toxic cell phones (batteries), disposable diapers and K cups and clothing material that has more oil based products non-recyclable in them than my olive oil (LOL) - but get rid of plastic bags (dear god we actually do something that might actually inconvenience this 'younger generation' but do some good! It's natural to condescend when one doesn't get any respect for what they did in the past. And I also know that the new way of thinking is that people aren't going to give respect until they get some (which makes no sense to me) but there you have it. Okay - rant over from this olde pharte.
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