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Post by Pats Freak 101 on Jun 30, 2005 11:34:06 GMT -8
Empires have fallen because of it. Rome and Persia both fell after it was socially okay to be gay. We were always taught that Rome fell because the Roman Empire grew too big to defend, and eventually it was invaded, with Persia also eventually falling to a rival army. Nowhere in our history books did it say that either of those nations collapsed because the army was on a Gay Pride march during the invasions, nor even that the countries involved suddenly imploded after a gay wedding was held. Do you think they'd put that in a textbook ?
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Post by « tman » on Jun 30, 2005 11:37:37 GMT -8
We were always taught that Rome fell because the Roman Empire grew too big to defend, and eventually it was invaded, with Persia also eventually falling to a rival army. Nowhere in our history books did it say that either of those nations collapsed because the army was on a Gay Pride march during the invasions, nor even that the countries involved suddenly imploded after a gay wedding was held. Do you think they'd put that in a textbook ? That is sort of true, I remember reading about how Rome became too multi-cultural and it ruined them or such.
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Post by Goodnight Vienna on Jun 30, 2005 11:44:54 GMT -8
Do you think they'd put that in a textbook ? That is sort of true, I remember reading about how Rome became too multi-cultural and it ruined them or such. Can also be said of the ancient Egyptians,it has been said that multi culturalism destroyed one of the greatest, if not the greatest civilisations this planet has ever seen, now i have strayed off topic, but couldnt resist!
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Post by Zephyr on Jun 30, 2005 11:57:50 GMT -8
ah sorry, it is an 18 page thread though... To say that it's abnormal is to, effectively, take the view that things in the world have a purpose. In this case the purpose of men and women is to reproduce, or at elast one of them is. A similar view is shared by Christians, natural law and what not. The idea of things having a purpose is a view that is very out of date. Obviously, I couldn't make the leap to say that the view was wrong. Christians may say that something's purpose comes from God. I'm not sure but I think you're either atheistic or agnostic, so my question to you is where do things get their purpose? or to use the language you used, what makes something normal? Well i'm not religous, so the 'book' hasnt taught me its abnormal, biology has, as i stated about the biological make up of men & women, they are suited for sex together, ok not everyone agrees, but fair enough, its just my opinion. Is that clearer? Your opinion was never unclear. If biology has taught you homosexuality shouldn't be permitted (I know those arn't you exact words) then why havn't many thousands of people come to the same conclusion as you, through the same reasoning? My point is that you can't come to the conclusion that homosexuality is abnormal, without first saying that heterosexuality is the only normal thing, and there's no reason to say that other than the fact that it takes a man and a woman to reproduce. Just because of that fact doesn't make homosexuality abnormal. We were always taught that Rome fell because the Roman Empire grew too big to defend, and eventually it was invaded, with Persia also eventually falling to a rival army. Nowhere in our history books did it say that either of those nations collapsed because the army was on a Gay Pride march during the invasions, nor even that the countries involved suddenly imploded after a gay wedding was held. Do you think they'd put that in a textbook ? do you think they might not put it in textbooks as it sounds utterly ridiculous to say gayness causes the fall of empires? given that other than slight coincidences there's no logical reason linking homosexuality to the downfall of empires.
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Post by richndanapoint on Jun 30, 2005 11:59:20 GMT -8
You all know as well as I do that Hetero's are the only one's capable of perfect marriages.
With the divorce rate at 53% for first time marriages - hetero's are doing a bang up job of showing the homosexual of the world just the definition of perfection.
I think there are two main reasons that the hatred of homosexuality is rampant:
1) the people that are hating on homosexual are homosexual themselves and are terrified of it. It is a matter of self-loathing (See Jim West the mayor of Spokane)
2) Poor logic. The Christian right is attacking homosexuality. It falls as punishable by death in the Mosaic laws of Deuteronomy (which - oddly enough was obliterated by the concept of a Christ) and in Paul's letters to the Corinthians (which the last time I checked - Paul - was not God).
The God of Christianity preached love, forgiveness, and the lack of judgment to the lowest dregs of society. Even if you allow the comment that gay's are lower casts - the Christ figure favored them.
Christianity wants to hold two contradictory concepts in their hands and hope that by yelling loud enough they can make them work.
a) The belief that we all live in sin, that we all are created sinful, that all sins are created equal in the eyes of God, and that Christ’s sacrifice is needed to save us.
b) That homosexual sin is worse than theirs, unforgivable by an omni benevolent and omnipotent God that stated he would forgive any that asked.
This is IF you accept the argument that homosexuality is a sin. I love the hetero's that lived their life just like they wanted - nailed whomever they wanted in college - cheat on their wives - beat their spouses - download porn at an alarming rate - and all their transgressions are covered. But the homosexual - look what they are DOING to our society. I for one will not stand in judgment!
My God - No wonder there are so many atheists. With that kind of Godly love - some choose to pass.
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Post by Goodnight Vienna on Jun 30, 2005 12:03:46 GMT -8
Well i'm not religous, so the 'book' hasnt taught me its abnormal, biology has, as i stated about the biological make up of men & women, they are suited for sex together, ok not everyone agrees, but fair enough, its just my opinion. Is that clearer? Your opinion was never unclear. If biology has taught you homosexuality shouldn't be permitted (I know those arn't you exact words) then why havn't many thousands of people come to the same conclusion as you, through the same reasoning? My point is that you can't come to the conclusion that homosexuality is abnormal, without first saying that heterosexuality is the only normal thing, and there's no reason to say that other than the fact that it takes a man and a woman to reproduce. Just because of that fact doesn't make homosexuality abnormal. Well surely for the survival & continuation of the human race HETEROSEXUALITY IS NORMAL! Quite clear i think! Anyway millions have come to that conclusion i have, even Christians, they dont just think homosexuality is abnormal just because of the 'book' but because of BIOLOGICAL FACT!
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Post by Zephyr on Jun 30, 2005 12:08:07 GMT -8
Your opinion was never unclear. If biology has taught you homosexuality shouldn't be permitted (I know those arn't you exact words) then why havn't many thousands of people come to the same conclusion as you, through the same reasoning? My point is that you can't come to the conclusion that homosexuality is abnormal, without first saying that heterosexuality is the only normal thing, and there's no reason to say that other than the fact that it takes a man and a woman to reproduce. Just because of that fact doesn't make homosexuality abnormal. Well surely for the survival & continuation of the human race HETEROSEXUALITY IS NORMAL! Quite clear i think! Anyway millions have come to that conclusion i have, even Christians, they dont just think homosexuality is abnormal just because of the 'book' but because of BIOLOGICAL FACT! There you go again, making the assumption that the primary purpose of humanity is the prolonging of the human race. But to set aside that objection and take your reasoning, maybe homosexuality is a form of population control? Homosexuality being abnormal isn't a biological fact. If you really believe that, I'd love to see you try and prove it, with out going down the tired lines of making assumptions you can't possibly prove.
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Post by Pats Freak 101 on Jun 30, 2005 12:13:52 GMT -8
Do you think they'd put that in a textbook ? do you think they might not put it in textbooks as it sounds utterly ridiculous to say gayness causes the fall of empires? given that other than slight coincidences there's no logical reason linking homosexuality to the downfall of empires. You dunna like the truth, eh ?
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Post by Zephyr on Jun 30, 2005 12:17:28 GMT -8
do you think they might not put it in textbooks as it sounds utterly ridiculous to say gayness causes the fall of empires? given that other than slight coincidences there's no logical reason linking homosexuality to the downfall of empires. You dunna like the truth, eh ? Is there such a thing as 'truth' is it just something created by the human mind? Maybe nothing is right or wrong, true or false. What can we be sure of? I wouldn't think about that too much, I mean if the comment you just made is anything to go by what I just said will probably keep you mightily troubled for days...
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Post by Goodnight Vienna on Jun 30, 2005 12:17:44 GMT -8
Well surely for the survival & continuation of the human race HETEROSEXUALITY IS NORMAL! Quite clear i think! Anyway millions have come to that conclusion i have, even Christians, they dont just think homosexuality is abnormal just because of the 'book' but because of BIOLOGICAL FACT! There you go again, making the assumption that the primary purpose of humanity is the prolonging of the human race. But to set aside that objection and take your reasoning, maybe homosexuality is a form of population control? Homosexuality being abnormal isn't a biological fact. If you really believe that, I'd love to see you try and prove it, with out going down the tired lines of making assumptions you can't possibly prove. Can you PROVE homosexuality is normal? Tired lines of assumptions? So its not FACT that men & women are biologically suited to sex? Why are you not understanding this? Hey look lets just leave it as its my opinion, if it makes you feel better label me a homophobe who is just being argumentative, because quite clearly we are going around in circles.
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Post by Pats Freak 101 on Jun 30, 2005 12:20:05 GMT -8
You dunna like the truth, eh ? Is there such a thing as 'truth' is it just something created by the human mind? Maybe nothing is right or wrong, true or false. What can we be sure of? I wouldn't think about that too much, I mean if the comment you just made is anything to go by what I just said will probably keep you mightily troubled for days... You must not have paid attention in history. Many things resulted in the fall of Rome. Mainly being a lack of people to defend it. If no one noticed I provided a reasonable explination to why there wasn't enough people. Think about that before you write the explination or me off as stupid.
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Post by Zephyr on Jun 30, 2005 12:22:20 GMT -8
There you go again, making the assumption that the primary purpose of humanity is the prolonging of the human race. But to set aside that objection and take your reasoning, maybe homosexuality is a form of population control? Homosexuality being abnormal isn't a biological fact. If you really believe that, I'd love to see you try and prove it, with out going down the tired lines of making assumptions you can't possibly prove. Can you PROVE homosexuality is normal? Tired lines of assumptions? So its not FACT that men & women are biologically suited to sex? Why are you not understanding this? Hey look lets just leave it as its my opinion, if it makes you feel better label me a homophobe who is just being argumentative, because quite clearly we are going around in circles. I don't believe that homosexuality is either abnormal or normal. If you really want me to reach the conclusion that it is normal by some method, then I would have to say that since, I believe it is, 1/10 people are gay, then there are far too many gay people to call it a mere abnormality, but that is going by statistics, rather than random assumptions I've made. I am understanding it really easily, what you don't seem tog et is that you cannot prove that homosexuality is abnormal. I'm claiming you're a homophobe, I've not even thought that.
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Post by bryant on Jun 30, 2005 12:23:23 GMT -8
Can you PROVE homosexuality is normal? Tired lines of assumptions? So its not FACT that men & women are biologically suited to sex? Why are you not understanding this? Hey look lets just leave it as its my opinion, if it makes you feel better label me a homophobe who is just being argumentative, because quite clearly we are going around in circles. He never denied that of being fact. And it is you who keeps it going in circles. You must not have paid attention in history. Many things resulted in the fall of Rome. Mainly being a lack of people to defend it. If no one noticed I provided a reasonable explination to why there wasn't enough people. Think about that before you write the explination or me off as stupid. And you must not have paid attention when we explained how the amount of homosexuals in a country would have little to no affect on the population rate.
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Post by Goodnight Vienna on Jun 30, 2005 12:27:38 GMT -8
Can you PROVE homosexuality is normal? Tired lines of assumptions? So its not FACT that men & women are biologically suited to sex? Why are you not understanding this? Hey look lets just leave it as its my opinion, if it makes you feel better label me a homophobe who is just being argumentative, because quite clearly we are going around in circles. I don't believe that homosexuality is either abnormal or normal. If you really want me to reach the conclusion that it is normal by some method, then I would have to say that since, I believe it is, 1/10 people are gay, then there are far too many gay people to call it a mere abnormality, but that is going by statistics, rather than random assumptions I've made. I am understanding it really easily, what you don't seem tog et is that you cannot prove that homosexuality is abnormal. I'm claiming you're a homophobe, I've not even thought that. Didnt say you did call me a homophobe, i can just see where its heading, my right wing views on this are not liked by many liberals & often ends in the homophobe slur , its just i present FACTS about men & women being suited for sex & that being normal & homosexuals not being suited for sex, hence being abnormal! Was an opinion based entirely on the biological make up of men & women!
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Post by Zephyr on Jun 30, 2005 12:30:53 GMT -8
I don't believe that homosexuality is either abnormal or normal. If you really want me to reach the conclusion that it is normal by some method, then I would have to say that since, I believe it is, 1/10 people are gay, then there are far too many gay people to call it a mere abnormality, but that is going by statistics, rather than random assumptions I've made. I am understanding it really easily, what you don't seem tog et is that you cannot prove that homosexuality is abnormal. I'm claiming you're a homophobe, I've not even thought that. Didnt say you did call me a homophobe, i can just see where its heading, my right wing views on this are not liked by many liberals & often ends in the homophobe slur , its just i present FACTS about men & women being suited for sex & that being normal & homosexuals not being suited for sex, hence being abnormal! Was an opinion based entirely on the biological make up of men & women! But your assumption that 1. there has to be a normal and an abnormal in sexuality and 2. that homosexuality must be abnormal are not based on biological fact. I'm offended that you would think I would call you a homophobe.
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