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Post by Robyn on Jan 28, 2011 5:23:24 GMT -8
I wouldn't. Look at how everyone treats me
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Post by alexx on Jan 28, 2011 5:43:27 GMT -8
It DOES sound vague doesn't it? Because no matter what I say, you guys complain and argue against it. I need to provide 20 links of proof plus five books and two quotes from famous people. Sure, that's part of life, but whenever I HAVE done just that, you guys disprove it. Yeah you didn't undersand I word I said. Seriously see the link/clip that explains what I'm talking about. Don't be stubborn for a change and see it. And no excuses like lamestream media and so forth. Just see it. you are like the lady in the video. I don't care what you say (actually I do but that's another point) as long as you stick to your beliefs. But you don't do that. Sure things like believing god is real and that sort you will never change. But for smaller things you change your argument to suit whatever you are arguing at that time. For example if Global Warmimg would somehow help you in the cause of proving god you would admit it's real and claim you never said it was fake.
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Post by Renegade on Jan 28, 2011 5:44:01 GMT -8
I wouldn't. Look at how everyone treats me Most people here treat you with the same amount of respect and tolerance you show to everyone else, which isn't very much. If you want to be treated better, stop trying to make yourself look like a victim, and start treating other people better.
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Post by Robyn on Jan 28, 2011 5:49:15 GMT -8
It DOES sound vague doesn't it? Because no matter what I say, you guys complain and argue against it. I need to provide 20 links of proof plus five books and two quotes from famous people. Sure, that's part of life, but whenever I HAVE done just that, you guys disprove it. Yeah you didn't undersand I word I said. Seriously see the link/clip that explains what I'm talking about. Don't be stubborn for a change and see it. And no excuses like lamestream media and so forth. Just see it. you are like the lady in the video. I don't care what you say (actually I do but that's another point) as long as you stick to your beliefs. But you don't do that. Sure things like believing god is real and that sort you will never change. But for smaller things you change your argument to suit whatever you are arguing at that time. For example if Global Warmimg would somehow help you in the cause of proving god you would admit it's real and claim you never said it was fake. Fine, believe what you want. And global warming DOES exist, what doesn't is the fact that humans are fully responsible for it. I wouldn't. Look at how everyone treats me Most people here treat you with the same amount of respect and tolerance you show to everyone else, which isn't very much. If you want to be treated better, stop trying to make yourself look like a victim, and start treating other people better. Everyone says I'm treating you guys like crap. I've yet to see posts that show such things.
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Post by Renegade on Jan 28, 2011 5:52:26 GMT -8
Everyone says I'm treating you guys like crap. I've yet to see posts that show such things. That's weird, because I've pointed them out plenty of times recently, and I could easily go through your recent posts and start quoting more of them. Here's a useful little tip though, if "everyone" (your word) is telling you that your attitude to other people sucks, while you're the only one saying different, you're probably the one who's wrong.
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Post by alexx on Jan 28, 2011 5:58:02 GMT -8
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Post by Ryan Roos on Jan 28, 2011 8:20:11 GMT -8
Ok first! Everyone calm down a little. I almost locked this thread, it's getting a little insulting and ganging up against Robert. Let's step back into talking. It DOES sound vague doesn't it? Because no matter what I say, you guys complain and argue against it. I need to provide 20 links of proof plus five books and two quotes from famous people. Sure, that's part of life, but whenever I HAVE done just that, you guys disprove it. robert - I understand that you are being sarcastic here. But I personally feel that you have never provided me with any proof that isn't just someone's opinion. I'm talking about any tangible proof at all. This can be frustrating to people explaining things to you and asking for an answer.
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Post by Renegade on Jan 28, 2011 9:08:30 GMT -8
Ok first! Everyone calm down a little. I almost locked this thread, it's getting a little insulting and ganging up against Robert. Let's step back into talking. If he's gonna post things like "look at how everyone treats me" you've gotta expect that people will show up to justify how he's treated. Especially as he posts that in about 50% of the threads he's in. Personally, although it doesn't apply so much to this thread, I'm kind of sick of seeing Robert insult people or call them out, wait for them to reply, then act like everyone is picking on him so that the mods show up and tell people to stop being "hostile" (that's how Pat put it before ). for the sake of not getting someone else's thread locked, I've said everything else in PM to you
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Miss Daisy
Est Sularus Oth Mithas
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Post by Miss Daisy on Jan 28, 2011 10:56:14 GMT -8
"Thou shall not have any other God before me." Does this mean that God wouldn't like a competitor? I've roamed through the Bible, to find some disturbing phrases. Something that struck me was "chosen people". So God chooses people, to save? This means that all those people around the remote parts of the world, with no access to this information of God are breaking the ten commandment? And why? Because God chooses people? Hmm... People around the world have joined Christianity. Are they ignoring their Judaic roots? It can't be ignored. The fact is, that they are saying those who had no way to find about this "one true God" are breaking it just by worshipping someone else. That's not fair to them. What type of God is this? So believing in good, doing in good, and following a just religion isn't enough. It has to be this one. Lastly, I don't blame God, but the people who created or edited the books. If there's really.. positively.. one TRUE god? I seriously doubt that it's the one the Christians made up. Yeah, if he did exist he would be afraid of a little competition wouldn't he? Perhaps from a god that actually cares/listens to his followers instead of slapping them with diseases like cancer and diabetes or telling them to help themselves before he can be bothered to help them. If there's ever only one true god? I'm putting my money on one of the older religions. You know, the ones that existed before Jesus even existed. Robert, people here might treat you with a little more respect if you possessed the capabilities to form your own opinions about anything instead of using someone elses pov as your own. For example - my parents were raised mormon and had their own views on life/religion/how I should be when I grew up. Although I carry a little of their influence with me in my adult life, I do not live as if I were them, nor did I take their opinions and use them as my own. I listened to what they had to say and formed my own opinion on (politics, religion, sexuality, equality, etc) for myself. One minute you hate Obama and love Bush, the next minute you couldn't care less. One minute Global Warming isn't real, the next minute it is but it's not our fault. See the point? Everyone has the ability to change their opinions on something, especially if given proof that voids their opinion (as many here have tried to do, fruitlessly), but it's up to you to accept that you're wrong (or right when given the opportunity to be).
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Post by The Dancing Lock Guy on Jan 28, 2011 11:25:37 GMT -8
Dancing Lock Guy, it's called ignorance and closing your mind. No offense, but I understand it perfectly. You don't because you are closing your mind to possibilities within religion. Just as I have been told to open my mind more, maybe you can as well. Your questions can be easily answered... from God. Just ask Him. I mean, if you really want to know, why not ask Him yourself? Haha no you don't. You keep shifting your argument to fit your beliefs depending on who you're talking to because you're afraid of admitting that your arguments have flaws. And recognizing that your arguments have flaws can undermine your position on the issue at hand. Just because a few people disagree on an idea doesn't necessarily mean that one party doesn't understand the issue at hand. No one can fully agree on which economic system works the best - doesn't mean they misunderstand economics. However what you claim as misunderstanding on my part is actually a flaw fatal to the concept of a deity itself - it doesn't matter what position you take, the flaw still remains. It's not an end user problem. What will change based on your position and what you do understand is how you explain the flaw of a deity existing - it raises many unneeded assumptions. The inconsistencies that arise from you changing your argument around to 'counter' perfectly valid points are all too apparent. You know you can only submit faith arguments pasted over with explanations appealing to authority. And when challenged, you shift the burden of proof for your claims just like you did to me right now with "Why don't you ask God yourself?". I'm not closing my mind to any possibility within religion. The fact of the matter is that you refuse to recognize, for whatever reason, that the 'possibilities' we were talking about were defined when you submitted your argument to try to justify why God would coerce people into continuing faith in Him. Recognizing that a possibility actually exists and accepting that it could happen is not the same as rejecting one because it's logically impossible. Speculation? Really? Well why don't you explain why God is afraid of losing membership? What is he doing? Running a forum? If you sent all of your children somewhere far away and knew that many would never come back, wouldn't you be afraid for them? 1. The question behind his reasoning for 'sending people away' is irrelevant since your explanation here brings another flaw into light. Omniscience is a fundamental characteristic of imagining the idea of a monotheistic deity. He couldn't be afraid of the consequences of his own decisions because it's assumed he can see into the future - he's already aware of the exact consequences of his own decisions. What's to be afraid of them for? If he's afraid that something will go wrong, he can just intervene. If the people in question he's afraid for don't believe in Him, why would he care if something happens to them? He's not obligated to do anything for them. And before you say "He can't intervene because he wants to test their faith." No. He'd intervene because that's the best idea if he wants the easiest way to membership in the best way it can be incorporated into his plan as possible. Any other method of recruiting members is sadistic. 2. You say no one can understand God's motives, yet at the exact same time you ask us to understand why God would coerce people into having faith by asking "If you had to send your children away somewhere, wouldn't you be afraid"? You're basically asking us to imagine being God in that position. If no one can understand God, why ask us to try to imagine being in God's position? It indeed brings into question the validity of his motives because the way you describe them to us are not consistent - yet you claim you have a perfect understanding of what's going on. What's that imply? That God is not 'understandable' because the entire concept of him is irrational. If such a being were understandable, you wouldn't need to change your argument because others would clearly see the infallible logic behind your argument. The problem is that the logic not only you use - but all theists use - inevitably collapses on itself because no one can reduce the concept of a deity sufficiently enough to explain it and not raise unheeded assumptions that can be disproven - all which appeal to authority. And I laughed when I first read your post. So because I disagree with you, I'm ignorant? You know the difference between you disagreeing with someone because you actually are ignorant of the topic, and me disagreeing with you because I see the problem with your logic? I took the time to read your post and point out its flaws relevant to what your position argues. You bring in unrelated extreme examples to 'prove' your point in a topic, the examples of which rely on inconsistent criteria to prove its validity. Really all you did was prove that you have no knowledge of the thread you're posting in xD I mean really. Saying you're open-minded because you tested out IE and decided you don't like it is not the same as being open-minded to homosexuality. I bet when you said " Just as I have been told to open my mind more, maybe you can as well", you were referencing irrelevant topics which don't do anything to prove that you actually recognize the flaws with your argument in this thread xD So open-minded means I agree with you right? And being ignorant means that I don't? I'll keep that in mind. Hint: what defines you as being either of those terms changes relevant to the criteria fundamental to understanding the idea being discussed in the thread. Just because someone has a different position from you doesn't mean they don't understand what's being debated. They do - they just came to an equally (or in this case, more) logical conclusion.
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Exodus 15:2 The LORD is my strength and my defence, he has become my salvation. He is my God.
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Post by Hope Faith Love on Jan 28, 2011 12:02:59 GMT -8
Dancing Lock Guy, you've made a good attempt to understand and I commend you for that. There's very little that we can do to really hit home with what we believe because the next step would really be to read a Bible from cover to cover in study and that can take up to five years for an indepth study. I can see where your frustration comes from. You say something and immediately the goalposts are moved and unfortunately this arises from not standing steadfast in the scriptures. To be blown here and there with the wind is not a good thing and you have every right to be critical about this. It's a bad thing.
On the other hand, Robert's initial intentions are not malicious. I don't think he intends to be offensive but the line of questioning has become intensive that it's only natural to fall back to something you know as a defense.
I don't think short responses will achieve anything either because that simply invites others to point out the flaws in what you're saying. The best thing you can do Robert is to build an argument using the scriptures as a foundation and set your beliefs in stone so that the wind wont erode them. This will be interpreted to be closed minded but you should also use your own experiences to back it up so that people know that what you're doing isn't closed minded but rather based on your own experience that has made you feel that way so strongly.
A good way to know more about yourself is to write about your experiences to yourself. Eventually this can be converted into a testimony that will allow others to be sympathetic with your position.
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Post by The Dancing Lock Guy on Jan 28, 2011 12:25:38 GMT -8
Dancing Lock Guy, you've made a good attempt to understand and I commend you for that. There's very little that we can do to really hit home with what we believe because the next step would really be to read a Bible from cover to cover in study and that can take up to five years for an indepth study. I can see where your frustration comes from. You say something and immediately the goalposts are moved and unfortunately this arises from not standing steadfast in the scriptures. To be blown here and there with the wind is not a good thing and you have every right to be critical about this. It's a bad thing. Okay, Robert, exactly what is it that you think I don't understand, and what makes you think I don't understand it? You don't have to answer HFL I'm just quoting you so he'll see this. His intentions are definitely not malicious. Neither were my own. I was only exposing flaws with his argument. In particular how a deity can both be perfect and afraid of losing membership to another god that presumably doesn't exist. If he really wanted to get membership, really, why wouldn't he intervene with a miracle to convince people to stay and convert others? People who will reject the Bible or leave the faith for perfectly valid reasons get sent to Hell? That's cruel at best and sadistic at worst. I'm not sure if this is addressing me or Robert but I don't base my beliefs off Scripture because it told me to hold whatever it said as true. Being rigid in your beliefs definitely isn't close minded if you accept that others do have their beliefs. However I'm attacking Robert's arguments for his beliefs -- and by extension his beliefs but not them entirely -- because the way he's presenting them is actually doing a huge disservice to him. The way he goes about presenting his religious beliefs is what makes others thinks he's close minded. It seems to disclose ignorance on an issue, and when his arguments pertaining to his beliefs but not the faith itself is attacked, he calls others bigoted -- except no one's decrying the belief itself -- they're attacking the argument for taking that particular stance on an issue based on that particular belief. I won't dispute this. This sounds like pretty good advice for issues where valid positions can only be formed through empirical observations. However, the criteria this thread demands of all participants is the forging of a substantiated position through tangible evidence and consistent logic -- something that can't be fashioned through subjective experience.
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Hope Faith Love
Exodus 15:2 The LORD is my strength and my defence, he has become my salvation. He is my God.
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Post by Hope Faith Love on Jan 28, 2011 12:35:32 GMT -8
Mhm, well I've already expressed my views on the subject matter earlier in the thread. I wasn't very clear to who I was referring to because what I was saying could be taken to be offensive when my intent was merely to instruct. I was of course referring to Robert. I think he has a solid foundation but needs to consistently be expansive with his points without rambling like I do. Hehe. Anyway... I'm not going to continue to dispute this. If anyone wants to scrutinize my beliefs, I'll be hiding waiting in my thought/thread/treadmill for the night threads.
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Post by Robyn on Jan 28, 2011 15:14:17 GMT -8
Oooh dear.. long replies to go through ... Everyone says I'm treating you guys like crap. I've yet to see posts that show such things. That's weird, because I've pointed them out plenty of times recently, and I could easily go through your recent posts and start quoting more of them. Here's a useful little tip though, if "everyone" (your word) is telling you that your attitude to other people sucks, while you're the only one saying different, you're probably the one who's wrong. The thing is, though, take someone like S. F. Giants, who has outright insulted my and my life many times before. Does he get ganged on? No. Why do I? Because I'm different. You actually found a post I made a while back! Good for you!!! Too bad it's been like, over two years since then and I've learned more about global warming. Plus who says opinions can't change? Ok first! Everyone calm down a little. I almost locked this thread, it's getting a little insulting and ganging up against Robert. Let's step back into talking. It DOES sound vague doesn't it? Because no matter what I say, you guys complain and argue against it. I need to provide 20 links of proof plus five books and two quotes from famous people. Sure, that's part of life, but whenever I HAVE done just that, you guys disprove it. robert - I understand that you are being sarcastic here. But I personally feel that you have never provided me with any proof that isn't just someone's opinion. I'm talking about any tangible proof at all. This can be frustrating to people explaining things to you and asking for an answer. I'm used to it Proof for what? If it's the whole gay bill thing, then there's a website that talks about that stuff but it's a "biased conservative" website. The quote from the lawyer guy who said that many bills don't actually get read? From a book. It may be bias.
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Post by Renegade on Jan 28, 2011 15:45:38 GMT -8
The thing is, though, take someone like S. F. Giants, who has outright insulted my and my life many times before. Does he get ganged on? No. Why do I? Because I'm different. No, its because he's insulting one person (you), and nobody else is involved. You offend large groups of people, then seems surprised when they all want to reply. Plus there's the obvious point that he doesn't keep turning threads into discussions about himself, which tends to prompt replies anyway. On the occasion that he's posted things that more people haven't agreed with, or been ruder to groups of people, the mods have been a lot stricter with him, and I know I and others have argued with him on plenty of occasions anyway. PS: how you think anyone else acts is totally irrelevant to how people see you.
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