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Post by ●● JaeFeathered. on Nov 10, 2012 23:55:58 GMT -8
Yeah, marriage is absolutely not just about having children. There are tons of married couples who never end up having children because they simply don't want them, so are you going to deny them the right to get married as well? What about older couples who get married and can't physically have children anymore? Or what about infertile couples?
Marriage is also not just about religion. Otherwise atheists wouldn't be allowed to get married.
Honestly, gay people choosing to get married should be a decision between themselves, not the government, and certainly not ignorant zealots who think that they'll "ruin the sanctity of marriage."
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Post by Boom on Nov 11, 2012 0:04:47 GMT -8
Yeah, marriage is absolutely not just about having children. There are tons of married couples who never end up having children because they simply don't want them, so are you going to deny them the right to get married as well? What about older couples who get married and can't physically have children anymore? Or what about infertile couples? Marriage is also not just about religion. Otherwise atheists wouldn't be allowed to get married. Honestly, gay people choosing to get married should be a decision between themselves, not the government, and certainly not ignorant zealots who think that they'll "ruin the sanctity of marriage." THIS! THIS RIGHT HERE!
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Tumbleweed
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Post by Tumbleweed on Nov 11, 2012 2:15:15 GMT -8
I am not making this stuff up: but studies show that atheists have lower divorce rates than Christians In fact the more religious the people are the higher the divorce rate You have any stats on that? I think if there were a study on something like this you'd have to break it down a lot more then people who say they are Christians. Some people say that and never set foot in a church or read the bible and pretty much live their lives as they please. So you have to find out just how religious they consider themselves to be and also separate denominations. Some denominations frown on divorce. Anyway, had to chime in about gay marriage and adopting. First there has to be some studies out there. Many gay couples have a surrogate to give them children. I have no doubt there are very loving gay and lesbian couples who do a wonderful job with their kids. I think there probably is a down side like some kids making fun of them for having two dads or two moms, so to speak. But for the most part, I think they love their kids just like the average person loves them. Why do gay and lesbian couples have to use the word "marriage"? Why not a special word for a gay union. Maybe make up a new word. lol I just think they should not be called by the same name. And I'm sorry, I believe what the bible says about gay and lesbians and that it is wrong. That said, I don't get disgusted when I see a gay couple and I don't treat them any different than anyone else. I just think it is a sin but we all have sin in our lives so I just worry about the sin in my own life. However, when it comes to voting for or against gay marriage I'd vote nay based on what I believe. That is the reason why I love the 1% in USA. They say everybody can be rich you just need to work hard and you people buy it. That is why Romney is rich right because he worked harder than every one else no? His father had nothing when he came to the U.S. and if I remember right, got a bit of help from the government for a very short time. But this man did work hard and became rich. Romney gave his inheritance away from his father. I'm sure his father "knew people" though so Romney had an advantage but regardless, he took what he had and made it into millions so yes, you can become rich if you work hard. I had nothing to start out with. I worked my way through college, like many kids do, I worked from age 17 and never stopped and ended up with a very high paying job. Never even close to the 1% though. So hard work can get you at least well to do. But my company had to close down and things just happened that changed my life drastically so now I'm a poor person. And I voted for Romney. I avoided super biased news sources like MSNBC, CNN and Fox to help me make my decision. I'm very disappointed he lost but life goes on. I don't have high hopes Obama will do any better than the first 4 years but we'll see.
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Post by alexx on Nov 11, 2012 2:24:01 GMT -8
I am not making this stuff up: but studies show that atheists have lower divorce rates than Christians In fact the more religious the people are the higher the divorce rate You have any stats on that? I think if there were a study on something like this you'd have to break it down a lot more then people who say they are Christians. Some people say that and never set foot in a church or read the bible and pretty much live their lives as they please. So you have to find out just how religious they consider themselves to be and also separate denominations. Some denominations frown on divorce. Sure I do I am not in the habit of making stuff up or cherry pick my facts to coincide with my belief www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htmThe atheist divorce rates are in the link Also I like it how you tried to spin it: "maybe those people are not real Christians" Why do people do that: dismiss stuff so it could coincide with their world view What "real" Christians don't divorce ? ... for real ? Is this a conservative thing? Asking for stuff that can't possibly be done. You want a statistic with degrees of christianitism in them? You measure their theta level or something? Prove to me god doesn't exist!!!
I had nothing to start out with. I worked my way through college, like many kids do, I worked from age 17 and never stopped and ended up with a very high paying job. Never even close to the 1% though. So hard work can get you at least well to do. But my company had to close down and things just happened that changed my life drastically so now I'm a poor person. . So poor people are not poor because they are lazy? Because as we all know that is the truth.. maybe you are lazy That is what the 1% keep telling you no? Rich people are rich because they worked hard poor people are poor because they hate working. Did the company fail because all those people working there were lazy? Because I knew that a wall street banker is 1000% richer than a miner because he works 1000% more That makes sense more
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Post by Tumbleweed on Nov 11, 2012 3:35:31 GMT -8
You have any stats on that? I think if there were a study on something like this you'd have to break it down a lot more then people who say they are Christians. Some people say that and never set foot in a church or read the bible and pretty much live their lives as they please. So you have to find out just how religious they consider themselves to be and also separate denominations. Some denominations frown on divorce. Sure I do I am not in the habit of making stuff up or cherry pick my facts to coincide with my belief www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htmThe atheist divorce rates are in the link Thanks for the link. I didn't need it necessarily for myself but when you state something you should back it up. Just sayin'. I do find that link very interesting and will have to do some more research on the topic. For example this one, which I just skimmed through looks interesting as well. Also I like it how you tried to spin it: "maybe those people are not real Christians" Why do people do that: dismiss stuff so it could coincide with their world view What "real" Christians don't divorce ? ... for real ? Is this a conservative thing? Asking for stuff that can't possibly be done. You want a statistic with degrees of christianitism in them? You measure their theta level or something? Prove to me god doesn't exist!!!
I'm not trying to spin anything and I'm not saying someone isn't a Chrisitan because they don't go to church or read the bible. There are just some people who are more religious than others so they would take divorce very seriously. Even you have to admit that. Gosh Alex, when a study is done you can't just randomly call up people and ask if someone is a Christian and if they ever been divorced and call it a legit study. I'm just saying you can't just round up people who call themselves Christians without knowing more detail. The same you'd do for any study. Really, you don't have to get angry about it. You want me to prove God Doesn't exist? Little confused about that but I have no intention of getting in a "God" debate with you or anyone. So poor people are not poor because they are lazy? Because as we all know that is the truth.. maybe you are lazy That is what the 1% keep telling you no? Rich people are rich because they worked hard poor people are poor because they hate working. Did the company fail because all those people working there were lazy? Because I knew that a wall street banker is 1000% richer than a miner because he works 1000% more That makes sense more I worked for Kodak and you know what happened there. I had to start from scratch again and get a different degree and am a HR manager but I also have taken in my ill Mom, by choice, and now I'm pretty much at a stand still at futhering my new career. There just aren't jobs I'm qualified for that allow me to work from home (part of the time) so I can care for my Mom too. I'm not lazy. I'm also not saying that poor people are lazy. Many have circumstances beyond their control. There are also some people that are in fact, lazy and some are just complacent with the job they do. Some just don't have the drive to make more money or even care that much about money. Whose fault is it the miner decided to be a miner? What's wrong with someone setting a goal to become a wall street banker? We are intellegent human beings. We know which pays more and which pays less. The minor may work physically harder but the banker may use his brain 1000 times more than the minor. I'm really not sure what your question is?
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Post by Matej on Nov 11, 2012 3:50:45 GMT -8
I am not making this stuff up: but studies show that atheists have lower divorce rates than Christians In fact the more religious the people are the higher the divorce rate You have any stats on that? I think if there were a study on something like this you'd have to break it down a lot more then people who say they are Christians. Some people say that and never set foot in a church or read the bible and pretty much live their lives as they please. So you have to find out just how religious they consider themselves to be and also separate denominations. Some denominations frown on divorce. Anyway, had to chime in about gay marriage and adopting. First there has to be some studies out there. Many gay couples have a surrogate to give them children. I have no doubt there are very loving gay and lesbian couples who do a wonderful job with their kids. I think there probably is a down side like some kids making fun of them for having two dads or two moms, so to speak. But for the most part, I think they love their kids just like the average person loves them. Why do gay and lesbian couples have to use the word "marriage"? Why not a special word for a gay union. Maybe make up a new word. lol I just think they should not be called by the same name. And I'm sorry, I believe what the bible says about gay and lesbians and that it is wrong. That said, I don't get disgusted when I see a gay couple and I don't treat them any different than anyone else. I just think it is a sin but we all have sin in our lives so I just worry about the sin in my own life. However, when it comes to voting for or against gay marriage I'd vote nay based on what I believe. The reason is quite simple. It's not about what to be called. It's about what's associated with it. Straight couple can stop calling it marriage and it would be fine. A marriage at the court house is still called a marriage. No church involved. Why is that? Is it less worthy than a church marriage? Are they suddenly bad parents? Another reason they should not be split, because the simple change of naming is automatically segregating it from the rest of the marriages. It is an instant implication that this is different and gay couples cannot get "married" like we do. They get to hop in a union. How is that fair? Why does what the Bible say have to implicate your faith in others? I don't like chocolate. My book tells me not to eat it. My chocolatafarian told me I should not eat it or I wont get ice cream. Well, that's all call and all, but does that mean I should prevent others from doing so? I can not do it and go for the ice cream. I can't know whether they'll get the option for ice cream anyway. The fact that I can choose to do so is my right. But I want to take that right to a choice away from everyone else, who hasn't spoken to my chocolatafarian or read my book. It's as simple as that. Let other people do their choices like you did it. That's what a right is. The biggest implication however is the fact that gay civil unions already exist. Even in California where gay marriage is obviously banned. Guess what that union gives them. .. .. Yeah, you were probably thinking wrong but they grant them nothing significant. Want to visit your ill partner in the hospital. Are you related? No. No visitation rights. Want to marry a foreign person and have them live with you. Are you straight? No. You cannot bring the love of your life to this country. Want to share taxes because you just bought a house? Are you married? No, just a civil union, Too bad, you'll have to file separately. I just got a great insurance plan through my company! I want my partner to have the same benefit as they offer that. Are you married? Nope. You don't get to share the plan. And so much, much more. Gay couples do NOT care by and large about the fact that their church approves. It's about the fact about what is granted to you about it! People don't want to get married because they can then acknowledge they are together... people want to get married because of all the other things that change once you get married. Like you mention, for it to be a sin in your life, why do you care if you let two other consenting adults marry? As for the adoption: Even if the child care is 10% worse than it would be in a man and woman couple, it would still be 100% better than it ever was in an orphanage and infinitely better than ending up in a dumpster. Or, seeing as you are Christian, would you rather the baby be aborted or given to a family who really wants to have a child and would care for it and love it? Again, it's really about rights. Simply put it this way, if you, as a straight person, want to marry a person of the same gender - YOU CAN! Opposite sex, which would be your choice of gender - STILL CAN! But you can choose not to, because your religion tells you not to. A homosexual person wants to marry a person of the opposite sex - THEY CAN. They want to marry a person of the same sex, the person they love? THEY CANT. They are not given the option. You are denying not only them a right, but even yourself. America is supposed to be a freedom. A freedom to even do a bad choice. You're obstructing that freedom because of your belief.
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Post by alexx on Nov 11, 2012 4:05:43 GMT -8
I'm just saying you can't just round up people who call themselves Christians without knowing more detail. The same you'd do for any study. Sure you can.. if someone says they are a Christian they are Christian. The same way if you look a person skin and determine they are green There is no certificate for that. A priest is no more a Christian than you. You believe in God- Christian, In Allah - Muslim in Xenu - scientologist, nobody - atheist. That is why when I debate the very bad things Christians do I am told that they are not real Christians, but when Christians do good things it's because of God. If something can't be explained - God, if some are explained - how God does it You pick and choose the things and suit you and discard those that don't The "prove to me god doesn't exist" was an example of things conservatives asked me to do.. the impossible tasks I mentioned earlier. And when I asked them to prove to them Zeus doesn't exist they told me we just know it.. so proof enough Like your "how %Christian were they" or show me a statistic of gay parents when gay parents aren't allowed to adopt in many states (USA) and the world (like my country, a bunch of overzealous Christians) I am serious about this: the only reason atheists are allowed to get married it's because Christians can't prove we aren't Christians. If there was a way to 100% determine who is atheist i am sure atheists like me would have have similar problems as gay people when it comes to marriage For that reason alone (the uncertainty that we are or aren't atheist) we are incredibly luckier than most minorities I told you that work hard = 1% it's a lie. You said no it's based on the truth and I showed you with examples why it's a fallacy... if you believe it or not that's another story The thing is you still buy it.. the 1% are mocking you belittle you and not only you accept it but embrace it... you are the only country in the world like that
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Post by Craig on Nov 11, 2012 4:48:09 GMT -8
If everyone was born equal, then you could use hard work as a measure of wealth. But people are not born equal. Not everyone can be a surgeon, not everyone can be a star footballer, not everyone can be an entrepreneur.
It is frankly insulting, and demoralising for someone who does have wealth to look down on someone without wealth, and think that they have worked harder, when in fact, someone who is poor can work as hard if not harder then someone that is wealthy.
100% effort into being a street sweeper is the same as 100% effort into being an actor and the same as 100% effort into being an entrepreneur is the same as 100% effort into being a shop assistant. Unfortunately, however, they do not yield the same monetary rewards.
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Post by Former Member on Nov 11, 2012 5:08:48 GMT -8
you can become rich if you work hard. Not true. Being rich involves hard work, smart decisions and circumstance which seems to be very selective. And about gay marriage. I find it very insulting that a religious group thinks "marriage" -- a word for a union between two people should be only for them. You know what's even more insulting? Religious people asking that gays use another word for their unity. Why not just walk up and slap them in the face? I thought we lived in a society where segregation wasn't acceptable and everyone should be treated equally and given the same freedoms. Guess not?
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Cutthroat Bill
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Cutthroat Bill
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Post by Cutthroat Bill on Nov 11, 2012 5:10:53 GMT -8
I like tumbleweed's implications above. All people who are poor it is purely for want of trying. All poor people are lazy. All people who lost their jobs, insurance and/or homes because of the global banking crisis have only themselves to blame.
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Post by Former Member on Nov 11, 2012 5:19:37 GMT -8
I like tumbleweed's implications above. All people who are poor it is purely for want of trying. All poor people are lazy. All people who lost their jobs, insurance and/or homes because of the global banking crisis have only themselves to blame. You're exaggerating a little. Timbleweed's vision on success and wealth is a little black and white. Maybe it's because she bought into the "American Dream" or simply doesn't acknowledge that employees and blue collar workers, an important group in society simply isn't paid enough. Not everyone can become a business man. Not everyone can become a movie star. There has to be people who work behind the scenes and those people are treated unfairly. It's a shame really. |Edit| grammar
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Cutthroat Bill
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Post by Cutthroat Bill on Nov 11, 2012 5:53:26 GMT -8
I like tumbleweed's implications above. All people who are poor it is purely for want of trying. All poor people are lazy. All people who lost their jobs, insurance and/or homes because of the global banking crisis have only themselves to blame. You're exaggerating a little. Am I? If what she says is completely true and accurate, how can *anyone* be both poor and hard working? The rest of your post is absolutely right, but my assessment was not an exaggeration.
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Post by ●● JaeFeathered. on Nov 11, 2012 9:05:40 GMT -8
It is an exaggeration, Bill. Straight up.
My grandmother was very poor, but she worked her butt off as a teacher for 50 years because her husband didn't work for a dime and he gambled all of her money away without letting her spend any more than she had to on my mom and her sister. She literally couldn't get a job better than that because women were allowed to be teachers, secretaries and nurses, and that's really about it.
Are you saying that she was lazy and that's why she was dirt poor?
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Post by Former Member on Nov 11, 2012 9:07:18 GMT -8
It is an exaggeration, Bill. Straight up. My grandmother was very poor, but she worked her butt off as a teacher for 50 years because her husband didn't work for a dime and he gambled all of her money away without letting her spend any more than she had to on my mom and her sister. She literally couldn't get a job better than that because women were allowed to be teachers, secretaries and nurses, and that's really about it. Are you saying that she was lazy and that's why she was dirt poor? I believe Bill was being sarcastic ;D
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Post by ●● JaeFeathered. on Nov 11, 2012 9:12:40 GMT -8
Wow. I feel awkward now. >_>
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