[Debate] What Qualifies as Roleplay Proficiency?

[» lady j !]

Aug 1, 2009 13:27:13 GMT -8 Sic In Principio said:

Aug 1, 2009 13:21:25 GMT -8 » lady j ! said:

Thought is very important though. What happens in 700 words could be no speech at all but internal thought and action and that can be very inspiring and powerful. Letting the other roleplayer know what your character is thinking, and them allowing you to see inside their head, allows for further plotting.

For example, I play Chuck Bass on a Gossip Girl forum - if I didn't have his thoughts and beliefs and desires to write about, he would be an empty shell and a few witty lines. The ladies I'm roleplaying with don't want that, because they've roleplayed with me before and know I can do better.

true, but sometimes, the character's thought has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. I've seen this one trooper ready to go out on a patrol when he starts thinking about dogs or something. He was just reminiscing about his dog, sure, that could mean something, if people were talking about pets or something, but it wasn't. There wasn't even any other mention of other people missing their loved ones or anything.

Well, I'll give you that. Unnecessary thought, aside from possibly an offhand comment that might be relevant later, is just that... completely unnecessary. If it's just for fluff, then it's over-posting and that's just as boring as someone posting "he shook his head and ran away" and nothing more.

[Sic In Principio]

Aug 1, 2009 13:30:01 GMT -8 » lady j ! said:

Aug 1, 2009 13:27:13 GMT -8 Sic In Principio said:

true, but sometimes, the character's thought has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. I've seen this one trooper ready to go out on a patrol when he starts thinking about dogs or something. He was just reminiscing about his dog, sure, that could mean something, if people were talking about pets or something, but it wasn't. There wasn't even any other mention of other people missing their loved ones or anything.

Well, I'll give you that. Unnecessary thought, aside from possibly an offhand comment that might be relevant later, is just that... completely unnecessary. If it's just for fluff, then it's over-posting and that's just as boring as someone posting "he shook his head and ran away" and nothing more.

yup, which is why although long posts can ad something to the post, pointless comments and irrelevant thoughts and actions make the whole post wasted.

Also what i saw from somewhere before, i don't exactly recall, but someone HAD TO insist to make a post insanely long (about 800 ish words) to describe how they walked into a room and picked up a cup of coffee. Why? Why would someone do that? Have you ever seen a novel where the author takes a chapter to describe how the character simply picks up a cup?

[» lady j !]

Aug 1, 2009 13:35:04 GMT -8 Sic In Principio said:

Also what i saw from somewhere before, i don't exactly recall, but someone HAD TO insist to make a post insanely long (about 800 ish words) to describe how they walked into a room and picked up a cup of coffee. Why? Why would someone do that? Have you ever seen a novel where the author takes a chapter to describe how the character simply picks up a cup?

Oh my! That is way ridiculous. Actually, it seems a bit like torture. I play a wide range of characters and although a recent post of mine centered around broken forks (it was relevant) and happened to be nearly 800 words, I spent only a bit of that time describing what my character was doing, versus why she was doing it and acknowledging the other person and the things they had done and said.

Balance is important to. Enforcing an 800 word count for something that I could write in a half a paragraph, or less, is downright cruel.

Balance and quality work together, and from them often comes length.

Averaging 400-700 words per post is normal to me, where less is normal to others.

But I think bad posts come from imbalance.

[sunshine]

Aug 1, 2009 13:35:04 GMT -8 Sic In Principio said:

Aug 1, 2009 13:30:01 GMT -8 » lady j ! said:

Well, I'll give you that. Unnecessary thought, aside from possibly an offhand comment that might be relevant later, is just that... completely unnecessary. If it's just for fluff, then it's over-posting and that's just as boring as someone posting "he shook his head and ran away" and nothing more.

yup, which is why although long posts can ad something to the post, pointless comments and irrelevant thoughts and actions make the whole post wasted.

Also what i saw from somewhere before, i don't exactly recall, but someone HAD TO insist to make a post insanely long (about 800 ish words) to describe how they walked into a room and picked up a cup of coffee. Why? Why would someone do that? Have you ever seen a novel where the author takes a chapter to describe how the character simply picks up a cup?

Oh, I absolutely agree that that would be ridiculous, haha. While I do agree with light posting requirements for my reasons stated above, I definitely don't want people fluffing and BSing posts just for length. That's not fun at all! A requirement of 800 words is absolutely insane. People roleplay as a hobby... if I wanted a writing assignment, I'd just take another english class? xD

Honestly, I don't think that to require 2-3 paragraphs is asking very much at all, nor does it take very much effort or fluffing to fill. As Jezzy said, we just want to make sure there is something to respond to. I think it really just depends on the atmosphere of the board and the kinds of members that it's trying to target. I certainly don't believe that shorter roleplay boards or boards that post one paragraph or less per post mean that they are "bad' roleplayers. However, the atmosphere of our board is one where, honestly, we like posting more lengthy things. It doesn't feel like a requirement; it generally happens by accident because we tend to really get into what we're writing. Therefore, our requirement is because we want to know that you can keep up with some of our more wordy members to make it sort of a fun and equal-effort sort of feeling for all.

I don't think there is anything wrong with either setting; it's up to the administrators what kind of standards they are looking for. :]

[Sic In Principio]

Aug 1, 2009 14:00:16 GMT -8 sunshine said:

Aug 1, 2009 13:35:04 GMT -8 Sic In Principio said:

yup, which is why although long posts can ad something to the post, pointless comments and irrelevant thoughts and actions make the whole post wasted.

Also what i saw from somewhere before, i don't exactly recall, but someone HAD TO insist to make a post insanely long (about 800 ish words) to describe how they walked into a room and picked up a cup of coffee. Why? Why would someone do that? Have you ever seen a novel where the author takes a chapter to describe how the character simply picks up a cup?

I definitely don't want people fluffing and BSing posts just for length. That's not fun at all! A requirement of 800 words is absolutely insane. People roleplay as a hobby... if I wanted a writing assignment, I'd just take another english class? xD

Thats what happens when larger post requirements are enforced. People end up making up redicuously fluffed posts, which is actually worse than really small posts IMO because u have to read it all first. Then after you're done reading it, you think back to yourself, "Damn that was a waste! It was all fluff!" Nothing you can actually respond to.

[Artemis]

Aug 1, 2009 14:10:07 GMT -8 Sic In Principio said:

Aug 1, 2009 14:00:16 GMT -8 sunshine said:

I definitely don't want people fluffing and BSing posts just for length. That's not fun at all! A requirement of 800 words is absolutely insane. People roleplay as a hobby... if I wanted a writing assignment, I'd just take another english class? xD

Thats what happens when larger post requirements are enforced. People end up making up redicuously fluffed posts, which is actually worse than really small posts IMO because u have to read it all first. Then after you're done reading it, you think back to yourself, "Damn that was a waste! It was all fluff!" Nothing you can actually respond to.

This is the issue I have with the majority of boards with requirements, they think that it will require a post that anyone can respond to instead of just a single action, but often it's taken to such an extreme that people are forced to write even if they have nothing to say.

To be honest if it's more than a paragraph requirement, it's not a site I'll join. I believe that if a person can roleplay well enough, they will be able to get their message across. Yeah, some people leave a lot of room for more info, and leave their partner struggling, but a minimum isn't always the way to fix that. For example, I have written between a single paragraph and posts that are pages and pages long in Word. I think that if a person needs to get something across, they'll do so in whatever length they feel necessary. A line or two just doesn't cut it, I'll say that; I just think that if a person is a good roleplayer they'll be able to determine how long it needs to be, and if they aren't good enough, a minimum won't always teach them what they need to know.

[grieves and squick]

Sometimes a longer post, with revealing thoughts, flashbacks and/or description{which can either be fluff or great}, is the best reply in a given situation. Other times a short post is best. In a game with word minimums, players must make longer posts regardless of what would actually be ideal. This encourages fluff that puts me to sleep. That's why I dislike them.

[Gia_Sesshoumaru]

Yes, of course, the age-old debate about Quality vs. Quantity. I've heard this many times on my site and elsewhere, and I'm sure that it will not stop. In my opinion, I do think think a short paragraph is ever a good thing. No, I don't think that you should make horrendously long posts about something incredibly simple is okay, either. There is a middle ground here, people. As I believe I said before, on my site, there is a character minimum of 500 characters, which as Kami explained, is pretty much just a decent sized paragraph. Do most people actually do that? No. Most do around 2K, but they can do 500 if they're in a hurry or have no muse with which to write. I don't think having high word counts is a good thing, because even I'd have a problem with that. I think one should have a reasonable word count, and encourage more.

Also, one should never talk about something irrelevant for word count. That's dumb, even I'd agree. Interntal thoughts/dialgoue should always be relevant, even if it's a flashback or something. It depends on the character, really, what's relevant or important to them, etc...

As for not being good enough to handle higher word/character counts, then... well, the truth of the matter is some people prefer high standards of writing in roleplays - like myself, and some people can't handle that, and that's fine. On my main site, we have a school were they can train if they're not ready to go the boards, but not on my other two. I do think it has it's advantages, but it's time-consuming. Sometimes people just have to look for other sites.

[Kmylove]

Jul 26, 2009 10:56:21 GMT -8 viruszero said:

Now if I were to describe the levels, they would be as such:

Amateur - The introductory level, this is where people are just learning about roleplaying so they are more apt to make mistakes and fall into traps about godmodding, stereotypes and whatnot. Posts may be basic, but this isn't guaranteed to be the case due to the writer's background. This level may or may not have issues with the grammar and basic useage of the language. (It depends upon the individual and their writing background.)
If the writer is particularly skilled they may pass right through this level and be classed as intermediate instead.

Intermediate - This is where people have advanced a bit, they might still have issues with their characters but they still show improvement. (Such as no weaknesses or the occasional outburst of a godmod situation.) They also may well show improvement with the use of the language, though this is not guarantee. It is also quite possible that the player now types longer replies for their posts. (This is not a given though.) But even if the replies are not longer they still show improvement over the previous level.

Advanced - This is the most advanced player. They typically show considerable skill in use of the language in describing situations and giving others quite a bit of detail or info to continue the story. They should also recognise when they have given enough description and should move on.
Characters from this level of player should be well balanced and posess both some strengths and some weaknesses. As well by this stage, players should well be aware of the stereotypes and try to avoid falling into them time after time. They should be able to mix their characters up a bit and provide an interesting story with them.
As such this level is should be more concerned with the quality of their posts than the length or number of posts they make.

I haven't been into roleplaying for long enough as to build my own standards of what would make a player fall into the beginner/intermediate/advanced category, but I can relate to this line of thinking.

I think that quality should be the essential factor when deciding upon someone's level. Quantity is really not a factor. From personal experience, I have had 300 word posts in which my character has said/done and given more things to respond to than some 800 or even 1000 word posts and I have seen it happen to other people too. It tends to get pretty frustrating when you must reply to a 1000 word post which gave you barely nothing to work on, specially if a bit of common sense stops you from typing something too outrageously short in reply.

Sure, there are threads which are more dramatic or more emotionally charged which can make me type above 500 words in a breath but that doesn't mean that if I can do it, I am willing to have that enforced on me. I doubt I am the only one that feels that their brain comes to a screeching halt with its inspiration if aware that you must beat a certain limit, or else... It just doesn't work this way. How much you type should really depend on the situation in the thread.

The forum I co-admin, in term of posting length, has a simple rule: no one-liners. You are free to make short posts if they give others something to reply to. Yes, it does have a word counter in the posting area, so people have an idea of they're at when they type something up, but that's all really. No one has ever been scolded for their post length and everyone is happy. We have classified ourselves as an intermediate RP.

[faded01]

How do you define any of these levels of roleplay?

Beginner- just as it states a person new to role playing, they are new to the game and haven’t decided how they want to rp or are trying out each different way to rp

Intermediate – fully chosen which why they like to rp ( first person, third person), do they like to post in detail or not, ect ect

Advanced- are skilled in the way they rp or in many ways to rp.


Do you use word counts and other requirements, or are you more relaxed?Does your forum have these requirements to begin with?

for profiles i use word counts - i believe that the more you have to think about about your characters background or personality the more you are able to "become" that characters and can play them better. i hate it when people barely do anything for a profile then say there character is still developing. your character has already been developed else you wouldnt have anything to play. for ever new rp you join your characters DO develop but only after your foundation for your character and its already made up life have been thought out. you cant just say "im 200 and my character hasnt developed much"

for posts since i dont judge between beginner to advance i require atleast 100 words for a post. i like long detailed posts so that you can paint the picture from a persons words but it isnt to long and drawn out so that you get bored with it. i find that qauilty and quanity go hand in hand slightly, you could write once sentance and it be a great sentance but will it explain everything you need to so that the picture you are trying to paint for the other person is shown the way you want it to.

[viruszero]

Aug 2, 2009 3:49:13 GMT -8 Kmylove said:

I haven't been into roleplaying for long enough as to build my own standards of what would make a player fall into the beginner/intermediate/advanced category, but I can relate to this line of thinking.

I think that quality should be the essential factor when deciding upon someone's level. Quantity is really not a factor. From personal experience, I have had 300 word posts in which my character has said/done and given more things to respond to than some 800 or even 1000 word posts and I have seen it happen to other people too. It tends to get pretty frustrating when you must reply to a 1000 word post which gave you barely nothing to work on, specially if a bit of common sense stops you from typing something too outrageously short in reply.

Sure, there are threads which are more dramatic or more emotionally charged which can make me type above 500 words in a breath but that doesn't mean that if I can do it, I am willing to have that enforced on me. I doubt I am the only one that feels that their brain comes to a screeching halt with its inspiration if aware that you must beat a certain limit, or else... It just doesn't work this way. How much you type should really depend on the situation in the thread.

The forum I co-admin, in term of posting length, has a simple rule: no one-liners. You are free to make short posts if they give others something to reply to. Yes, it does have a word counter in the posting area, so people have an idea of they're at when they type something up, but that's all really. No one has ever been scolded for their post length and everyone is happy. We have classified ourselves as an intermediate RP.

I whole heartedly agree, if someone says:
"You have to have 500 words" or "You need 3 paragraphs" then I tend to have problems. I as well, absolutely hate being told that I have to have such an amount. It just seems like they are placing too much importance on having a set number of words than the actual meaning of them and their importance to the story.
Even saying 250 words... While that might not be too much of a stretch and I could easily clear it 3 times over in a single post, I still hate the idea of being told that I have to have it. Kinda hits like a kill switch for creativity.

As for one liners... While I said I hate limits, I think that no one liners for a limit is not an issue. If someone is having troubles making a decent post that is over 2 lines, they should probably look at improving their writing skills or something first. I mean a single line post can be very tough to reply to well, so having a load of them drags the whole rp down.

Even in a dialogue part, a single line is probably too short. I mean you can make atleast a second line that's relevant to what is going on by a bit of exposition on what the character is thinking as they're talking. Or even describe whats happening around them as they speak. (Such as if they're listening to music, and/or what line the music is at...)

And I don't know about anyone else... but seeing several player's characters just spurt one line "conversations" back and forth sort of bugs me. It's like they can't be bothered to put in any real effort into it.
EX-
"Hey" said Joe.
"Hows it goin?" said Peter.
"Pretty good" said Joe.
And etc...

[therevolution]

To be honest, I hate all roleplaying minimums which is above a five line paragraph. For instance, on most days I would be able to post about 200 or 300 words per post. But on others, I might be able to post six or seven hundred, and then the next, about fifty. I hate the feeling of needing to be consistent. >.<

[Dean Winchester]

As for requirements, I really only have a few. Grammar has to be decent. I know that I'm not the world's best when it comes to grammar, but I don't make huge mistakes that stick out like a sore thumb. If I make a typo I attempt to go back and fix it.

I also believe highly in the spell check button. There is no reason to misspell something when you have a spell check button.

Quality, to me, is better than quantity. As long as it is not extremely short it's okay. A short paragraph is fine with me because it gives a better chance of giving a better reply. I like to be able to see inside a character's head.

If there is a member that joins and has a few grammatical errors, I'm more willing to give them a chance if they take the advice. If I see effort when they go back to fix their application and take advice the admin gives, then I don't mind accepting them.

Over all, I don't think it is the amount of words that make a proficient RPer. I think it is just the way people are able to use their words in order to portray their characters.

[••PSYCHO KILLER]

I agree, in part, with what most people are saying here. Of course, for example, an 800 word expectation is ridiculous, but thinking you can get away with post one line is just as silly. I think there should be a word count, just to make sure people are putting some thought into what they write. However, it should be something fairly short (for instance, 100 or 150 words). Someone should also mention that, if posters have trouble scrapping together enough to fill the requirement, it is not the forum for them. Although quality is most important, it sucks to have a three sentence post, even if it is written incredibly well.

I also think that a set number of words is more reasonable than a number of paragraphs, especially when paragraphs are defined as "at least 5 sentences" or some other number. This makes people who like to post long paragraphs feel a bit cheated, and it limits the creativity of those who prefer many short paragraphs. Personally, some times I like to write long paragraphs with, say, over 20 sentences, but I also like to post a few one or two sentences paragraphs for good effect and personality.

As for quality....It's always difficult to define quality and this is probably why some people focus on length instead, as there is no widely recognized scale for RP quality. A rule can be "Posts must be at least 250 words" but not "Quality of posts must be at least a 5". For RPing, much of the quality comes from combining a characters personality with directed actions. In other words, a good post contains both what your character is thinking, so others can understand them better; and it contains what your character is doing, so others can find a good way to respond to the post. Also, it obviously contains good grammer and spelling and is creative.

...sometimes, the character's thought has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. I've seen this one trooper ready to go out on a patrol when he starts thinking about dogs or something. He was just reminiscing about his dog, sure, that could mean something, if people were talking about pets or something, but it wasn't. There wasn't even any other mention of other people missing their loved ones or anything.

I have two general rules for what to write your character thinking about. Like all rules, occasionally the situation calls for you to break them. However, I think for the most part they are good markers.

First, unless your character is legally insane or has ADD, they should be thinking either about what is happening at the the moment, or they should think about something that clearly relates and that a reader can easily follow their thoughts to that subject.
So if soldier Joe is at war and starts randomly thinking of dogs, its a bad post.
But, if Joe is at war and thinking about the people he's killing, and then the families of those people and their losses, and then Joe's past losses, which included a great dog he loved, and then about dogs in general, it is much more realistic and more cohesive to read.

Second, if the characters thoughts a feelings go on for so long that, by the time they do something or say something, the reader can't remember why the character did that or, worse, what the situation is, then the thoughts have gone on for too long in too large a chunk, or don't relate enough to the situation.


Most important of all, posts need to be interesting, which means they need creativity. Bring in something new! That means don't have your characters always do the obvious thing, don't only give your characters thoughts on exactly what the last person had their character think about, and (please, please, please) don't have your character do/say what that person on your favorite TV show did last episode.

[sunshine]

I agree with almost everything that you have said, zelzaz7. Thank you for putting it into pretty words that make sense and don't sound unreasonable. xDD

I also think that a set number of words is more reasonable than a number of paragraphs, especially when paragraphs are defined as "at least 5 sentences" or some other number. This makes people who like to post long paragraphs feel a bit cheated, and it limits the creativity of those who prefer many short paragraphs. Personally, some times I like to write long paragraphs with, say, over 20 sentences, but I also like to post a few one or two sentences paragraphs for good effect and personality.

I see what you mean, but at the same time, I feel like a paragraph minimum feels a little bit more laid back. Generally if you are a decent writer you write decently-sized paragraphs as it is and don't have to worry about it, whereas if you are a little bit less advanced, but still managed to make the cut of our board, you can get away with a little bit less as long as you say something in your post that's able to be responded to. A word count feels really strict to me, but that's just my own opinion.

Most important of all, posts need to be interesting, which means they need creativity. Bring in something new! That means don't have your characters always do the obvious thing, don't only give your characters thoughts on exactly what the last person had their character think about, and (please, please, please) don't have your character do/say what that person on your favorite TV show did last episode.

Amen. xDDDD