[Debate] What Qualifies as Roleplay Proficiency?

[Hannah]

Jul 22, 2009 0:26:04 GMT -8 Artemis said:

In my opinion, quality is everything, or at least, most of it. I'd usually prefer more than a few sentences even if it was written with Shakespearean quality, but beyond that I don't enforce any length rules or word counts. I think it's absolutely silly to believe that longer posts make better writers, and considering I believe roleplay to be a fun pastime and hobby instead of a chore, I'd like people to feel comfortable with writing however much they feel is necessary, whether it be a single paragraph, or a multitude of pages for every post. I'm a firm believer that a good roleplay comes from the message conveyed by the words a person chooses, not how many words it took to reach that message.

I completely agree! It should be quality that counts, not quantity. And roleplaying is just for fun. It's not a chore or a job, nor should it be. I have never labeled any of my sites beginner, semi-literate, literate, advanced, et cetera because I don't believe in such. Just because you may be able to write more, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are a better or a worse writer than others. I mean, really - describe literacy.

[Thanatos Omega]

Being a Admin of one forum and Bored, I'll join on in the discussion.

For me I tend to not like to follow rigid definitions or levels of RP. but I agree with most of whats been said in terms of beginner to advanced. Actually I tend to really push for Quality and Quantity in my forum and places where I'm a simple member.

To answer the First question: I guess Beginner is faster paced IMO, more focused on the actual Rp and less on say word counts or setting others up with very detailed posts.

Intermediate for me is middle ground. Word counts go up but so should the level and quality. you don't want a monologue of 400+ words that kills the flow of that given thread, to me that kinda post may as well be a spam post, since nobody can even use it to introduce their own character as a follow up without it looking out of place.

Advanced is the bigger leagues, I've known admins of a few. usually it's walls of text mixed with lots of creative and descriptive stuff. The ones I played on took some thinking before you hit the reply button. the posts were full of details so you have to really read them and adjust your response to make sense. I enjoyed it but i know many who were put off by the need for "brain inclusion" before you hit the reply. Course there's a limit, I don't wanna have to spend 3 hours reading a post over and over to soak up details before i hit reply.


Do I Use word Counts as Admin? Nope. well not officially. I do nudge my members to develop and post longer and more detailed replies but if the need suits it I can deal with a Paragraph or less. Generally I do get Irked if things devolve into a one liner fiesta and at the risk of being a Jerk i do step in sometimes and just say honestly, " People Post counts, get back on track please".

So officially No, but My members can get lazy and tend to lead off others, I have a member who's amazing, and goes 500+ words it makes the rest of the slackers step up, which is perfect from my point of view. That said Not officially no, i tend to like to allow folks to enjoy the fun of a RP and not have to worry about counting words. - I figure we all do enough of that anyway in College for the essays, so no need for it on the forum -


Does My Forum have Requirements? Not currently but I'm seriously considering pulling out my "Strict Admin" hat and laying down a official rule on post counts to try and get membership up. Like I said I don't like being that typical Admin who rides your tail over the guidelines but It may be needed.

T-O

[Artemis]

Aug 19, 2009 19:40:38 GMT -8 Thanatos Omega said:

Does My Forum have Requirements? Not currently but I'm seriously considering pulling out my "Strict Admin" hat and laying down a official rule on post counts to try and get membership up. Like I said I don't like being that typical Admin who rides your tail over the guidelines but It may be needed.

T-O

For clarification, why do you think that adding a rule about post counts will increase membership? I think there are those who will pleased to see a requirement, however, might it not be a bit easier to simply say that people may write however they like? If your worry is that people with higher standards for length may be deterred, you could always set up a 'looking for' thread where people who would want to write longer posts could find each other. Just a thought!

[Thanatos Omega]

Aug 20, 2009 13:41:00 GMT -8 Artemis said:

For clarification, why do you think that adding a rule about post counts will increase membership? I think there are those who will pleased to see a requirement, however, might it not be a bit easier to simply say that people may write however they like? If your worry is that people with higher standards for length may be deterred, you could always set up a 'looking for' thread where people who would want to write longer posts could find each other. Just a thought!

Well From my experience, mandating one paragraph seems to be a standard, I've visited many boards both proboards and other sites. and most seem to like at least one paragraph. They all seem to have a solid member base, small on some occasions but active so.

Guess I;d say yeah, it may boosts membership, i think it shows that the members and staff are looking for a higher standard and wanna keep things very clean and moving. I can see how one liners and short posts could cripple a board or RP.

Personally i now mandate at least one paragraph. You can go more if you like. Most of my members seemed to embrace it willingly even gladly. I mean, it's not that hard IMO to think it out and link 5 or 6 sentences in your post. Theres plenty to put in a reply or post in almost every RP, from character emotions, thoughts, special effects, or descriptions of the action and area that all adds flavor.

Generally I do agree thought, it's best to keep it simple and not mandate what be posted, I've seen a board where the admin mandated exactly what a post had to have, be it specific details of the character or whatnot. That's overkill.

I think that while putting that search option out there could help, in the long run it may hinder your board, since now you could have two very different groups Rping on two different levels. I shudder to think what would happen if members decided to simply switch back and forth, could be a disaster. Then again Thats My opinion and i have not yet seen a board that allows such a search so, I suppose it's just baseless speculation on my part ;D

[Freya]

I was a lazy bum who didn't read the rest of the thread before replying :-P .

Anyway, I've actually had arguments before over quality vs. quantity in RP. Some people insist on writing a thousand words every post and want a pat on the back for it, even if it's a thousand words of filler. There are some people whom you can tell don't bother to read the other posts in a thread before replying, and even some where you wonder if they read any threads at all, since they seem to have no idea of even major events that have gone on in the game. So I think RP proficiency definitely involves keeping up on the events of the game in general and the threads you're in, in particular. Also, people need to learn how to say what's needed and then stop. If you don't have a thousand words' worth of important thoughts/feelings/action to convey, cut back. Any RPer worth the name would much prefer you wrote four hundred quality words than a thousand of pointless filler! I don't expect Shakespeare, but I do want people to use proper spelling and grammar whenever possible. I know typos happen to everyone, and some people may be dyslexic or not native speakers, but I shouldn't have to use a decoder ring to read someone's posts.

[Thanatos Omega]

Aug 22, 2009 15:50:50 GMT -8 Freya said:

I was a lazy bum who didn't read the rest of the thread before replying :-P .

Anyway, I've actually had arguments before over quality vs. quantity in RP. Some people insist on writing a thousand words every post and want a pat on the back for it, even if it's a thousand words of filler. There are some people whom you can tell don't bother to read the other posts in a thread before replying, and even some where you wonder if they read any threads at all, since they seem to have no idea of even major events that have gone on in the game. So I think RP proficiency definitely involves keeping up on the events of the game in general and the threads you're in, in particular. Also, people need to learn how to say what's needed and then stop. If you don't have a thousand words' worth of important thoughts/feelings/action to convey, cut back. Any RPer worth the name would much prefer you wrote four hundred quality words than a thousand of pointless filler! I don't expect Shakespeare, but I do want people to use proper spelling and grammar whenever possible. I know typos happen to everyone, and some people may be dyslexic or not native speakers, but I shouldn't have to use a decoder ring to read someone's posts.

100% Agree

I think the key point you touched on was that folks need to learn how to RP with, well creative common sense. Post enough to convey the events or goings on, tie it together and stop. I'm a member at one site that until recently was known for having filler posts of nothing but nonsense. Folks knew they had a word count and had to fill 90% of their post with just filler. The first 4 lines were enough but there was that word count.

I think, if your gonna have a word count of a larger sort, 2 or 3 paragraphs or 500+ words you should have some thread were players can go to get tips on pacing their posts. I usually coach my players for about a week while they get used to the site. Help them learn whats expected but also how to stop writing and be concise.

As Admin i usually do look down on folks who don't read the events. Specially if a player up and leaves for a week mid event, i hate that. Usually my members move on and ignore the person who left and find someway to leave that train of events logically. Then the person comes back and, rather then reading what happened they pick up where they left off. never mind how annoying that is but it kills the whole series of posts with a out of place reply.

Point of my thoughts is I think Freya has a very solid point, players need to learn or be coached into knowing what a post needs to have and how to avoid filler. Very solid Point Freya Kudos ;D

[••PSYCHO KILLER]

I was a lazy bum who didn't read the rest of the thread before replying :-P .

Anyway, I've actually had arguments before over quality vs. quantity in RP. Some people insist on writing a thousand words every post and want a pat on the back for it, even if it's a thousand words of filler. There are some people whom you can tell don't bother to read the other posts in a thread before replying....

Yes!

I consider myself a pretty good RPer, but if I see I hugely long post, I usually read the first few sentences, then skim through it for dialog. I have never written 1000 words in a post becuase I know people don't want to read that much. Just like the previous point that RPing is for fun so no one should have to write that much, no one should have to read that much to just get the gist of "Bob said 'Hello' and was happy".

[grieves and squick]

I've written posts over 10,000 words BUT--generally only solos or, more rarely, intros. {YES the Proboards 60,000 character limit per post is real! You can no more defy this than defy gravity!}

Most of my posts are short. Real short.

I've been a beginner for 10+ years. ;D You could say I am a proud beginner. Some of the posts I feel proudest of were less than one line long.

Quality over quantity, folks. I see some sites calling themselves "advanced" but getting caught up in the trap of not increasing real creativity at all, but instead just replacing quantity of posts with quantity of words. And another thing...

If roleplayers really are trying to improve their writing in terms of today's market, the vast majority would turn their noses up at the slow-paced, description-laden style encouraged by many if not most "advanced" RPGs as completely unmarketable=bad. Good writing is considered by almost all modern day publishers, editors and critics {not to mention most readers, or it wouldn't be selling the most} to be fast-paced, and frugal in description--describing as much as possible with as few words as possible. Only saying what is necessary to push the story forward, quickly create vivid imagery, and develop characters--and no more. Making each word count for all it can and if possible performing more than one function where it is placed. Less is more.

[grieves and squick]

And I take exception to the perception and pushing of longer posts bogged down by endlessly rolling internal monologues, descriptive fluff, often pretentious use of large words and which accomplish very little action for their length as "advanced." It isn't advanced, because anyone who writes like that and believes that to be what is considered the pinnacle of good writing has a LOT to learn about the craft.

There is also an innate snobbiness about the use of these terms that turns me completely off. It's one thing to look on poor writing/roleplaying technique--lack of grammar, spelling, punctuation and posts that provide the other player{s} little or nothing to respond to--as the signs of a beginner--they are. It's another to automatically disregard any post that isn't X words long as a lousy piece of writing. Writing isn't about how many words you use, it's how you use however many words.

[My Kitty Twofer]

Most of the time what will happen is a person, not even a good roleplayer, will spend ten minutes on a post that has no backbone, no quality, just useless adjectives and clauses that confuse the reader rather than help them. When auditioning for a canon character you just know that someone out there will have a LONGER, not better, but longer, post than yours and get the spot.

Sometimes when reading a long post I get BORED and quit, replying on what i've read or can pick out.

As an admin(co-admin, really) i never liked word counts. Rather, I use sentence minimums, and even then it's only aroung 5-10.

However, I do know that reading

Sally kicked the ball and laughed.

John laughed back. They fell in love and had a baby. THE END

can get very boring.

I think a roleplayer should look back to early schooling, to sentence structure. I see a lot of " As Sally kicked with precise precision though many people didn't think of it because mostly they just didn't like her" or "John was happy. Very very happy. His happiness filled him to his gills. Happiness overflowed from him. He was so happy he could jump." We get it! JOHN IS HAPPY! It's a shame you've lost your audience.

[grieves and squick]

When auditioning for a canon character you just know that someone out there will have a LONGER, not better, but longer, post than yours and get the spot.

Because whoever's judging the bio in that case is a poor judge of writing talent. If writing talent is what you look for in your RPGs, I'd abandon one that did the above, and move on.

There are no hard and fast rules in writing, and no hard boundaries around what separates good writing from bad. You have to be your own judge. I think people should look back on the kind of books they read in the past that really grabbed them and examine what those authors did in order to engross them as readers. They should also stop trying so hard. Seriously. It shows, and it's painful.

[Frosty225]

Jul 22, 2009 0:26:04 GMT -8 Artemis said:

I think it's absolutely silly to believe that longer posts make better writers, and considering I believe roleplay to be a fun pastime and hobby instead of a chore, I'd like people to feel comfortable with writing however much they feel is necessary, whether it be a single paragraph, or a multitude of pages for every post. I'm a firm believer that a good roleplay comes from the message conveyed by the words a person chooses, not how many words it took to reach that message.

First, allow me to say that I love you and that I am so quoting this in my signature. I totally agree.

To me, it doesn't matter at all how much you can post. I mean honestly how many words can you used for a combat thread, or how many words can you use to say you kissed someone or shook their hand? I mean come on it's ridiculous to say someone is advanced or elite simply because they can describe how a character took one step in like 500 words. [just an, example]. To me, what makes you an advanced role player is how well, with one thread you can set up the plot of the thread, the emotions your character feels and the environment of the thread.

What makes you a great role player in my opinion isn't how many words you can post, if you can post post a book in one post then that's great, thanks for wasting my time. But what qualifies as an advanced RP'er is simply the ability to draw people into your posts and take what you get from the people you RP with and create a reply.

If you're an advanced RP'er and someone gives you a one-liner then you should be good enough that you can compensate for that one-liner and keep the thread going. Who gives two --censored-- about how long your post is. It honestly makes me completely angry when people post hideously long posts in an RP because most times they get off topic and you're spending more time skimming the post looking for when they get back on topic. I mean seriously if you're in an RP where you're facing down an armada of enemies with another person do you really care to read about how their hair flew through the wind like silk and other random bull-crud? I sure don't.

[end rant, back on topic]

Jul 22, 2009 0:26:04 GMT -8 Artemis said:

How do you define any of these levels of roleplay? Do you use word counts and other requirements, or are you more relaxed?

Like I stated in my rant above, A good role player, or at least someone who proclaims to be an Intermediate or advanced/elite level role player should be able to 'roll with the punches' So to speak. I mean honestly when I make a site my minimum posting limit for RP threads is just one paragraph, and I even allow one liners every now again. Why? Let me quote what was said at the beginning of this thread by artemis.

Jul 22, 2009 0:26:04 GMT -8 Artemis said:

I think it's absolutely silly to believe that longer posts make better writers, and considering I believe roleplay to be a fun pastime and hobby instead of a chore.

She's absolutely right. I'm a strong believer in 'Quality, not Quantity' when it comes to Role playing. Word Counts, absolute Literacy, and length? Honestly, I'm a good RP'er but I write how much I want, when I want. Forums that make you post a lot or stress on your writing are absolute jokes to me really. I mean I'd love to know when Role playing went from a fun pass time to this whole 'Who's the better writer?' I mean okay yeah you have a goal set, that's fine, but don't force your goals on other people.

Jul 22, 2009 0:26:04 GMT -8 Artemis said:

Does your forum have these requirements to begin with?

No, they don't. For a few good reasons, Beginner, Intermediate, advanced... that doesn't matter to me. How long you've been RP'ing? That also doesn't mean Crud to me. The only requirements I make on my RP sites is you have to at least post a paragraph[and even then, an occasional one or three liner is allowed] and it has to be understandable, and stay on topic. The main reason I don't have word counts or things of that nature on my forums is because it's actually [in my opinion] extremely selfish. I mean honestly there are great Role Players out there who stopped due to not being able to find a place where they can just hang back and have fun with it [like role playing is supposed to be like.]. Not only that it seems more like a decease for these newer role players who think they're doing great jobs on their posts because they take hours to give you ten paragraphs of off-topic non-sense.

Note:
Sorry if this seemed more of a rant than anything.

[grieves and squick]

a welcome rant, I'd say On the whole I agree with you, and Artemis.

Except maybe for this...

If you're an advanced RP'er and someone gives you a one-liner

Again, this is the use of the word "Advanced" to mean someone who makes longer posts. I take exception to that, I think some of the best posts I ever wrote were only one or two lines long...some were less than one line. I'd quote them but outside of context they'd lack much meaning. Not to say I'm a good writer, I'm pretty run of the mill I'd say {if I were great I'd have published a book by now! We're all amateurs here ^_^} but I think that some of my best work came out in short, punchy, one-two liners.

My posts average around 4 lines on the whole. They vary quite a bit. That's because as it's been pointed out before on this thread, different RPing situations call for different types of action that in turn demand a variety of lengths.

Lately I am beginning to see a backlash around the RPing community against the heretofore growing trend of calling a site that requires 500 words per post or whatever "advanced." I remember when this whole trend had not even started yet, and when I discovered it I was like...wtf XD

[B2x]

Here's my two cents and I apologize if it's been said but there are so many long posts here.

My number one concern is this. If the posts are too short, many times it makes it hard for the next person to come and react with that person. It's as if the person never acted at all.

I think the best way to roleplay is for it to have meaning (regardless of length) and be on topic. Another importance is someone to not godmod, speak the language of the board, and use proper grammar and spelling to the best of their ability.

TheR iz nuffin worz thenz spendin mor tyme reedin them postz n styll bein confuzled 2 ruine a thred...

you know what I mean?

[Frosty225]

Oct 20, 2009 17:17:33 GMT -8 grieves and squick said:

a welcome rant, I'd say On the whole I agree with you, and Artemis.

Except maybe for this...

If you're an advanced RP'er and someone gives you a one-liner

Again, this is the use of the word "Advanced" to mean someone who makes longer posts. I take exception to that, I think some of the best posts I ever wrote were only one or two lines long...some were less than one line. I'd quote them but outside of context they'd lack much meaning. Not to say I'm a good writer, I'm pretty run of the mill I'd say {if I were great I'd have published a book by now! We're all amateurs here ^_^} but I think that some of my best work came out in short, punchy, one-two liners.

My posts average around 4 lines on the whole. They vary quite a bit. That's because as it's been pointed out before on this thread, different RPing situations call for different types of action that in turn demand a variety of lengths.

Oh trust me I barely even write more than three lines if I'm feeling lazy. Really to me, and I would post up examples from my site if it wouldn't take so long... The only real qualification you should have as an RP'er is whether or not you have the means to finish a thread and have it blend well with another person.

I've seen too many times people title themselves as this so called advanced or intermediate and they start a thread that has no flow and dies with no one replying to it after about the first page. To me, if there is such a thing as an advanced RP'er... don't you think their worries should be more so on developing the thread and the characters/story within the thread instead of how many words they can type?

Oct 20, 2009 17:17:33 GMT -8 grieves and squick said:

Lately I am beginning to see a backlash around the RPing community against the heretofore growing trend of calling a site that requires 500 words per post or whatever "advanced." I remember when this whole trend had not even started yet, and when I discovered it I was like...wtf XD

I really loathe sites with a word count and just like you when that came around I was seriously like wtf! then again I was out of role playing for like almost two years. I made it a point to one of my staff members who wanted to have a manditory high word count that I wasn't going to do it. I mean honestly, 500 word count her post... alrighty then, let me just start the post with a blah, and then Ctrl+C and then Ctrl+V and ta da! I've reached 500 words!

Seriously... word counts... useless.

Oct 21, 2009 20:39:50 GMT -8 B2x said:

TheR iz nuffin worz thenz spendin mor tyme reedin them postz n styll bein confuzled 2 ruine a thred...

Okay ya'll are going laugh but... amazingly I understood and read that without spending that much time on it XD