[Debate] What Qualifies as Roleplay Proficiency?

[grieves and squick]

To me this is part of what makes an advanced roleplayer...To those of you who have been roleplaying for at least a few years, look back. Think back on those years, the games you played in and the cahracters you interacted with. Now is there anyone's characters that still stand out in your mind? Does a mind-blowing plotline in one of those games still remain in your memory? Are there details of a character, their tendencies, funny moments or tragedies that pop out to you even now? {And for good reasons--not because this particular person made you want to shoot somebody if they weren't banned soon XD} Were these characters iconic to the game they were in?

The kinds of people who created these characters and stories are the good roleplayers, in my mind. A 2,000 word post {or a whole thread of them} means little if you've forgotten it by next week, or next month. I think what makes characters memorable is that they do things that nobody else in the game {or similar games} ever did. They innovated and produced something original and that stood out.

[Frosty225]

Oct 22, 2009 11:13:47 GMT -8 grieves and squick said:

To me this is part of what makes an advanced roleplayer...To those of you who have been roleplaying for at least a few years, look back. Think back on those years, the games you played in and the cahracters you interacted with. Now is there anyone's characters that still stand out in your mind? Does a mind-blowing plotline in one of those games still remain in your memory? Are there details of a character, their tendencies, funny moments or tragedies that pop out to you even now? {And for good reasons--not because this particular person made you want to shoot somebody if they weren't banned soon XD} Were these characters iconic to the game they were in?

The kinds of people who created these characters and stories are the good roleplayers, in my mind. A 2,000 word post {or a whole thread of them} means little if you've forgotten it by next week, or next month. I think what makes characters memorable is that they do things that nobody else in the game {or similar games} ever did. They innovated and produced something original and that stood out.

I completely agree with RPGnut on this one, and unfortunately I can't think of anything that would expand on this. I mean I'm one of those people who have thought back on those days since I began. And there are a lot of memorable role play moments that are still in my head. And not because they were just big long posts but because they were really strong threads with an actual flow and direction all be it you really didn't know how it was going to end.

Another thing that amounts to if they're a good role player[in my opinion] is if, and I'm using RPGnut's post for context, is if those people you role played with are still able to do what they did originally, and that's being able to burn an thread or game into your memory now just like they did in the past when you RP'ed with them.

[viruszero]

Hmm, I find it a bit odd to proclaim that you don't like word limits, but yet have a paragraph minimum then say that even then you don't oft follow it.
If that is the case, then why not reduce your minimum to 2-3 lines. Something that, I would hope, is easily achieveable by virtually everyone. (To me it just looks bad if the site staff can't/doesn't even follow their own rules. Why would you set the rule if you don't even follow it?)

That's why I prefer sites that either have no minimum or a really low one like atleast 1-2 lines. (Much less stress to produce material than saying: "Oh, you have to have 500 words" or "You have to have a paragraph.") As I personally hate massive limits... 500 words, even proclaiming a paragraph annoys me as there may well be times when I just won't be able to do it. (Writers block, stress from alot of writing, not enough time to actually make the post or something along those lines.) And I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

As I have said before, I won't join a site that requires such limits. It's just not happening. (And it's not because I can't produce the material, far be it. I just don't want to feel forced to produce that much all the time. Especially if I end up really active and involved in several topics at once... )

[Frosty225]

Oct 27, 2009 9:17:04 GMT -8 viruszero said:

Hmm, I find it a bit odd to proclaim that you don't like word limits, but yet have a paragraph minimum then say that even then you don't oft follow it.
If that is the case, then why not reduce your minimum to 2-3 lines. Something that, I would hope, is easily achieveable by virtually everyone. (To me it just looks bad if the site staff can't/doesn't even follow their own rules. Why would you set the rule if you don't even follow it?)

Hm... perhaps I didn't elaborate myself. A paragraph minimum is really what I would like to see on my site however I'm not going to sit there and enforce that because I know how daunting and aggravating it is to stress about having a perfect paragraph. [revamping my site rules since they're totally cluttered.] In my rules it states:

#3 At least a paragraph or more when RP'ing or making a bio.
I'm not big on long posts all the time. They're time consuming to make, and read and they really drain muse. So if you like your posts big then by all means go right ahead. However the minimum post count you are allowed to post is a 5 line minimum. 1-3-liners every now and then are understandable every now and then but don make a habit of it please.

I even make it a point to tell new members that I'm not completely strict on how big their posts are. As long as someone can work with it, then by all means have fun.

[sunshine]

Oct 22, 2009 4:25:01 GMT -8 Frosty225 said:

Again, this is the use of the word "Advanced" to mean someone who makes longer posts. I take exception to that, I think some of the best posts I ever wrote were only one or two lines long...some were less than one line. I'd quote them but outside of context they'd lack much meaning. Not to say I'm a good writer, I'm pretty run of the mill I'd say {if I were great I'd have published a book by now! We're all amateurs here ^_^} but I think that some of my best work came out in short, punchy, one-two liners.

My posts average around 4 lines on the whole. They vary quite a bit. That's because as it's been pointed out before on this thread, different RPing situations call for different types of action that in turn demand a variety of lengths.

Oh trust me I barely even write more than three lines if I'm feeling lazy. Really to me, and I would post up examples from my site if it wouldn't take so long... The only real qualification you should have as an RP'er is whether or not you have the means to finish a thread and have it blend well with another person.

I've seen too many times people title themselves as this so called advanced or intermediate and they start a thread that has no flow and dies with no one replying to it after about the first page. To me, if there is such a thing as an advanced RP'er... don't you think their worries should be more so on developing the thread and the characters/story within the thread instead of how many words they can type

since my roleplay board has developed some i have to say that i both disagree and agree with this in different ways. while i do believe that quality definitely has priority over quantity, i believe that being able to keep up with any length of post around you definitely does play a factor in roleplay proficiency.

honestly, as i've said before, i think that what it comes down to is the type of roleplay you maintain. if it is an atmosphere of speedy, quick, shorter posts with less detail and less focus on story format and writing and more focus on moving the plot along, then certainly, having a shorter word expectation is what is best. however, in places like my board, that consider themselves not only an advanced roleplay board but one with more focus on writing style rather than just speedy plot progression, longer posts really make it feel complete. sure, it takes longer to play out, but it feels very realistically paced and honestly, really rewarding when an entire plot HAS been played out with posts that you really feel like you worked hard on.

however, that being said, quantity alone has absolutely no merit to me. in my opinion, the mark of a proficient, "advanced" roleplayers is the ability to keep up with a wide variety of posting lengths, and write longer, more detailed posts not because it's expected of them, but because they have developed their character to the point where they simply have a lot to say. Not just that, but doing that while maintaining a sense of flow and writing style, and without using ridiculous filler text just to make themselves look good. I think often people assume that boards with higher word or paragraph counts just want to make themselves seem elite, but disregard completely that perhaps it's just a board full of people who like to write, and want to play with people who like to write as much as they do.

as it is, our board's paragraph count is nowhere near high enough to where members would feel that they needed to pollute their post with ridiculous filler text in order to reach it; three decent paragraphs is a completely reasonable expectation for members who join a writing board, and any lower I almost think would feel like an insult to our members. How can you call yourself an "advanced" writer if you struggle trying to hit a minimum lower than some people's "about me" section on facebook? xD Certainly, there are events and things which need to be progressed more quickly-- but in these cases, for example, we allow our members to disregard the minimum and write as much or as little as they want. similarly, for brief situational character exchanges that don't seem to need an entire thread, we have a logging system. if that feels too complicated, or prompts the question of why the whole board can't be that way-- consider that our log area is only used perhaps a few times per month.

Personally, I think this myth that word counts = frivolous elite attitudes needs to cease and desist. Honestly, closing yourself off to a board just because they expect a little more effort and development from their members is a really sure way to miss out on an awesome experience to grow and develop as a writer yourself, and have a lot of fun while doing it.

[viruszero]

Honestly, closing yourself off to a board just because they expect a little more effort and development from their members is a really sure way to miss out on an awesome experience to grow and develop as a writer yourself, and have a lot of fun while doing it.

Or it's an excellent way to weed out boards who only seem to care about assininely high post requirements. I mean personally, I write for fun. Not because I want to become the greatest writer ever. And as a university student I already have enough demands for writing as it is. So I don't need to join a board that stresses on being a perfect writer.

I would be certain that many others feel the same way, they have high school or university or college. Or maybe a job requiring literary workings. Even if they don't have such a job, it takes time to compose a post, and the longer the requirements the more time it can take. (Especially if you strike a bit of writer's block.) Many people simply may not have sufficient time for this. I can say that I often do not. So having a 3 paragraph per post requirement just makes it tougher to post when I'm already strapped for time. Thusly if I did post, the quality would likely suffer and there would probably end up being more filler to meet the requirement. Or alternatively I just wouldn't be able to post.

I'm not saying the requirement can't be met, I'm simply saying that too high a requirement is more of a hindrance than anything. There has to be a balance of length against time and effort. Too much time and effort spend on individual posts may be detrimental in the longer run. (Especially if you are expecting that person to be engaged in multiple topics at a time.) It may indeed cause a writer to burn out quicker or lose interest in it due to the feeling of too many demands. Roleplaying is a hobby, not your job right?

[sunshine]

Or it's an excellent way to weed out boards who only seem to care about assininely high post requirements. I mean personally, I write for fun. Not because I want to become the greatest writer ever. And as a university student I already have enough demands for writing as it is. So I don't need to join a board that stresses on being a perfect writer.

I would be certain that many others feel the same way, they have high school or university or college. Or maybe a job requiring literary workings. Even if they don't have such a job, it takes time to compose a post, and the longer the requirements the more time it can take. (Especially if you strike a bit of writer's block.) Many people simply may not have sufficient time for this. I can say that I often do not. So having a 3 paragraph per post requirement just makes it tougher to post when I'm already strapped for time. Thusly if I did post, the quality would likely suffer and there would probably end up being more filler to meet the requirement. Or alternatively I just wouldn't be able to post.

i attend college full-time as well as having a job when i'm not at school and i manage to post at least once a week? perhaps it's a difference of opinions, but three paragraphs isn't that much. xD it's something that most writers claiming to be advanced could probably do in ten minutes, and if you don't have ten minutes to spare once a week to keep up with a board you have made a commitment to, then perhaps our board wouldn't be the board for you, haha. but, i mean.... three paragraphs, you've just done that in a reply to me, and you seemed to have time for that? we don't require that much activity, maybe a few posts per month just so we know that the character is still being used, so in all honesty it isn't asking all that much of someone. certainly, we write for fun-- i rarely consider posting a chore, and if it feels like it one day, then i simply don't post that day, or i start a thread more fun for me. however, as a writing board i feel like the long-term goal ought to at least include the added bonus of developing one's writing style and skill.. you know, just in a fun, social way. we've been active for a year this month anddd have a fairly high, loyal member following, so i guess what i'm saying is that i'm not basing my opinion purely on what i think, but on my own experience as an administrator as well.

[viruszero]

Agreed, that is 3 paragraphs... But as for the length of time it takes to write them... That can vary alot depending on personal writing speed and time needed to think of an adequate reply. So in reality it can take anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes to compose a good 3 paragraph post. (With time to include revisions and changes for basic spelling and grammar.)

And my point is that yes, one post might take 20 minutes to write... But if you're engaged in 6 or 7 topics at a time, all which demand 20 minutes per post then it doesn't take long to chew up quite a bit of time. (At 6 topics, 20 minute a post, you've consumed 2 hours.) And if you are important to the plot/site then it might not be too uncommon to be involved with up to 10 topics at once.

And if you're important to the plot... you might very well be expected to be on everyday/every other day, not merely once a week. So it can get quite a bit more time consuming than 20 minutes every week.

Though if that works for you, I can't argue with you there. I'm just saying that high requirements don't work for everyone and they are valid reasons for that person not joining a site.

[Gateway Hogwarts]

I always think that a role-player should be able to post at minimum four sentences to two paragraphs when posting. Otherwise, not enough detail is put into the role-play and the other poster isn't able to do much with their post. Posting too much might make it difficult for the other poster to put a reply up. Asking for a minimum word count would be a little demanding as people can never be sure when enough is enough.

[darkxcrosses]

I personally think it isn't about the word count. The longer post are more of a pain because you can't really do much except have; long description no one can reply too, Self thought that is way to over done for the time frame/scene or then end up having to much action that another player can't respond to. I am not saying word limits are bad but there is a time when they become pointless. I am a writer and i could easily write three thousand words but that with help from the other characters. If you only have one character at your disposal it harder. Some of the best rpg's i was in were maybe a paragraph long but they portrayed the mood of the situation. They captured the emotion better then the people that post giant posts.
Where i use to rpg the post where giant but they were true to the characters and make everything believable. I don't distinguish between writer that rp and rp's that rp. As long as there not using a recycled story line from another published book. I like seeing originality.

[sochii]

I think role-play proficiency is about both quality and quantity. Whenever I see stories on fan-fiction.net that's full of one-liners per character, I don't read it. As long as the writer doesn't limit themselves to one-liners, or something like a single paragraph per post, that's role-play proficiency. Length should vary.

Word-count is pretty intimidating and doesn't allow creativity to flow.

[fantasmic]

I go by word count first, just as a basis. Some people simply need a goal, and when you push yourself to be more descriptive and informative to reach the word count minimum, I believe that your writing begins to improve. Always the case? Of course not, but practice makes perfect. If you write three or four sentences, one: I don't think people have enough to work on from that, and two: I don't think you can develop a character in so little writing.

Second I like to enforce grammar. To me, that's what distinguishes a beginner from intermediate, and intermediate from advanced. In my mind, the break down is as follows. Beginners have a hard time shooting out more than a few paragraphs, can get their point across but are very basic with little description and often several grammatical mistakes. Intermediate writers usually are better with description and grammar, but sometimes they overshoot trying to get their point across or focus on useless details just to write 2000 words and brag about it. Or maybe not brag, but you know. Just to say they can write that much in a post. We all know one or two role players who do that. Advanced role players can fit important description and maybe some funny thought bubble quips in their writing with few to no grammatical errors, keep the plot progressing and take a while for the thread to become stagnant. They know how to close threads, how to end role plays graciously, and are usually the best at keeping in character and developing plots while staying true to said character. It's a matter, to me, how well a role player can do that which determines their "level" in the RP world.

[Descent Into Darkness]

How do you define any of these levels of roleplay?

Give me quality over quantity any day. I mean yes it's great if you are one of those types who can make a 2,000 word post, but is it really that GREAT a post? Does half of what you say make any sense or does it drfit off into babbling and incoherent sentences? Anyone can make a 2,000 word or more post if they try, but most of the time, those are intro posts to bring in a new character as well as describing the situation that they are in. I personally dislike sites that require 400 words minimum and have it set to where that is the amount that you have to make. Sure I can do that with no problem, but what if the person isn't left with much to work with in a reply? What then? Do you bore the reader with random thoughts or what's going on around you? How do you manage to make that requirement if there's no content there for you to work with? If you insist on having a word count implemented, make it reasonable. I would rather see a 200 word post that actually grabbed my attention within the first 50 words then see a 2,000 word post that leaves me sitting there and asking myself what the heck were they trying to say there?

Grammar is also an issue easily dealt with by using spell check. I know there should be leeway given for those occasional typos because we are all guilty of making them. But using spell check helps decrease the possibility of misspelled words. And language translators are available for those who speak a different language themselves or for if their character does.

Oh and let me add that it is also annoying when a person announces in a bragging tone that they just made a 3,000 word post. All I can say is go you! Just don't rub it in because not everyone is a novel writer for pete sake! And then go expecting the person to respond to be able to match that post. There is where it becomes intimidating to an RPer because then they feel pressured to match that number and aren't able to so they eventually leave the forum because they don't feel "worthy" to be there any longer.

So give me that 200 word post filled with RP goodness and I am a happy camper. But give me a 50 word post that doesn't even make any sense, has nothing to do with what was being said and I might get a bit snippy. And again, there is the other problem with super long posts. The person replying may miss some key points because they had to slog through the entire thing just trying to get the gist of what the point was.

Do you use word counts and other requirements, or are you more relaxed?

I actually do use a word count and the minimum is 100 words and my main reason for that is to avoid those one word replies. Or one sentence responses to something. I don’t think that asking for 100 words is asking too much to be honest since most people can come up with two full paragraphs in their writing and RP is all aout actions, reponses and a bit of description of what the character is thinking or doing at the time.

Does your forum have these requirements to begin with?
See above

[grieves and squick]

My primary RPG has no word minimum at all. A lot of our threads run over 100 replies, some of them over 1,000 replies. So I don't think having no minimum has hampered us at all. On the contrary it's enabled people to be as brief or long as they like, and to throw in a couple posts on days when their muse might be a little under the weather. But they can just throw a small post out there and keep the action going, give the rest of us something to add to, and when their muse is full strength again they've got plenty of material waiting for them.

[``Megara Spice]

How do you define any of these levels of roleplay?

In my opinion each level of RPing is defined by a combination of experience and quality/length of posting. Its no good to class yourself as an advanced Rper if you're writing 8 paragraphs but they make no sense, even if you have been Rping for quite some time. Just because you can write more than three paragraphs does not make you advanced as they say its quality over quantity though quantity is important.

A Beginner, in some cases, is considered someone who is just starting with RP sites, usually someone in their first year. They usually only give the basics, sometimes resulting in one liners, and their posts are usually no more than 2-3 paragraphs at most. Beginners seem to be the most vulnerable when it comes to RP traps such as god modding, mary-sus and the like. Their characters can appear two dimensional at times and the Rper often focuses on strengths rather than weaknesses.

Intermediates have usually been on the RP scene for about a year and can frequently post 3-5 paragraphs of good quality. Their posts are detailed, describing surroundings as well as what the character is currently doing and why they are doing it. Intermediate characters are usually more developed and thought out, often shaping into a three dimensional character. Characters show more improvement and while the RPer may tend to focus more on strengths they do acknowledge the weaknesses. Intermediates of a lower level are still mildly prone to god modding. RPers at this level tend to stick to a character of a certain stereotype or with some similarities to previous characters (i.e. males, teenagers, blondes, etc)

Advanced Rpers have been rping for a while, usually around 5 years. Their posts are lengthy, of high quality and are extremely descriptive acknowledging situation, environment, emotions, thoughts, reasonings and other characters. They tend to be inside their character's heads so to speak, they know how they think, act and feel in any given situation. Characters are extremely well thought out and have a balance of strengths and weaknesses. God modding and Mary Sus are often eliminated for someone to reach this level. Rpers at this level can RP a range of characters from male to female, evil to good, creature to human, blonde to brunette, it doesn't really matter.

Of course there are times when some of these can be changed and combined. For instance; Jane Bloggs might have just started RPing a month ago but because she has been writing stories previously, can constantly post several paragraphs of high quality and has a well developed character she could easily be considered an intermediate RPer. I guess what I am trying to point out is that its not always black and white when it comes to defining levels. For instance; I have been RPing nearly 5 years now, I am always inside my character's heads, I understand them on a level that I would easily understand myself BUT I still only consider myself to be a High Intermediate RPer, with definate room for improvement. My posts are often lengthy, I refrain from creating mary-sus and from god modding and I have even developed some pretty decent characters with a decent balence of strengths and weaknesses but even I can admit that at times I get slack and they can lack the quality that needs to come with posting.


Do you use word counts and other requirements, or are you more relaxed?

On my sites I ask for at least 3 quality paragraphs minimum. I do not care how many words go into these paragraphs but I am a little strict on the length. a paragraph is defined as having 3-5 sentences and that is what I expect from my Rpers. I do have a word count installed on the site for those who wish to actually count how many words they are posting but it is not set to enforce a minimum number of words or characters. Essentially most of my minimums are more of a 'loose minimum' because I understand that people do get writer's block at times and dont want to leave someone hanging.

Does your forum have these requirements to begin with?

I do have some requirements, yes.