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Post by Capitan on Feb 21, 2020 6:15:50 GMT -8
This is a complicated discussion that requires a nuanced understanding of what sex and gender are in order to even approach a fair, just answer. Both sex and gender are social constructs: that is, although they are real, important concepts in human societies, which have real effects on people, they are not based on some naturally existing categories of stuff in the universe but are created by humans to serve functions in society. For example, although we tend to think that there are two sexes, sex is actually a biologically complex phenomenon, and not all the things that we think make someone male, for example, always occur together - it is possible to have XY chromosomes, yet develop biologically as a female, with breasts and a uterus. Instead, when we look at a person we tend to categorise them into a sex, based on our pre-existing understanding that such a binary exists, even though biologically sex forms more of a spectrum. Similarly, gender arises as the set of behaviours and expectations that are placed by society on people based on their perceived sex - for example, women wearing skirts, dresses, or being expected to do housework and act in a caring manner. Some people, (to the best of my understanding - I'm not trans, so please correct me if I'm wrong) feel a profound dissatisfaction with either the gender role they have been assigned, and/or their physical body. People who feel this disconnect with their gender and sex are trans people. Now, the reason I bring this up, particularly the issue of the sex spectrum, is because these issues of trans athletes dovetails with cis-people who, for whatever reason, have non-standard biological expressions. For example, South Afrian runner Caster Semenya is a woman, thinks of herself as a woman, and would be treated by society as a woman, has a condition which causes her body to produce very high levels of testosterone compared to the average. The athletics board have created rules that ban testosterone blood levels above a certain level that stop her competing in women's sport, even though she is a woman. This is not fair - if you look at elite athletes in general, they often have genetic mutations that make them weird in very specific ways that make them good at a particular sport. It's simply because this one is sex-linked that we suddenly get upset that the competition might be unfair. So, if sex is not a binary, and people can vary in all sorts of very specific ways, we need to recognise that trans people are the way that they say they are. If someone says they are a woman, they are a woman, and if someone says they are a man, they're a man. If someone says they're neither, that's cool too! But how can we account for all this variation in ability? Because it is true that a someone taking testosterone will tend to outperform someone not taking testosterone.
Perhaps the solution is to recognise that separate-gender sports was always a mistake. There aren't fundamental differences between men and women, and perhaps separating sports is one way that we reinforce this false idea. Team sports could instead be required to have a mix of people from different genders or different hormone statuses - think mixed doubles in tennis. For individual sports, we already have a system in place to deal with situations like this - in the paralympics. Competitors in the paralympics are assigned a handicap score, which allows people who are more disabled to potentially beat someone who can outperform them, for example, in the long jump, the winning athlete may not be the one who jumps furthest, if a more disabled athlete performs a greater feat for someone of their disability level. Such a system could be extended to account for many different kinds of variation - trans people on hormones, people with intersex conditions, competition between "males" and "females" classically defined - allowing many groups of people to compete in a single competition. I think that would be a fairer, more human and more just way to do sport than to arbitrarily define allowable values of sex expression for a set of limited categories.
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Post by Retread on Feb 21, 2020 8:01:50 GMT -8
As a trans male, I hate seeing other trans men competing against cis women, because I find it to be a bit transphobic in a way. We are men, yes biologically we were born as female and our biological make up is that of a female, but if they've been on testosterone and working out then their structure is that of a man's and NOT a cis woman. This is a huge disadvantage to cisgendered women. It's along the lines of allowing a cis gendered man to compete against a cis gendered woman. Also gender does not equal biological sex. Your gender is what you present yourself as, the way you carry yourself, the way you dress, how society sees you. Your sex is what you were born as biologically. There are multiple genders and even multiple sexes too. I know it's confusing to those who don't deal with this issue on a daily basis. Also trans male or FTM were born as female but transitioned to male. MTF is Male to Female, meaning they were born as men but transitioned to women. Trans Women cannot have traditional periods, as they do not have the biological organs to do so however, they still can experience menstrual cramps while on Estrogen. Trans Men, like myself, still can have periods even after taking testosterone for a while, until a hysterectomy is performed. MTF and FTM seem like a convenient way of defining the confusion I previously mentioned, since they inherently indicate the origin and destination. Testosterone was previously used as a Performance Enhancing Drug (PED) but has been banned from most sports. So that would probably disqualify FTM from most sanctioned competitions, regardless of whether it was a women's event or a men's event.
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Post by 📚 Dianne 📚 on Feb 23, 2020 5:02:35 GMT -8
So with all of this information how would you all answer my original question/s?
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Post by Bugme on Feb 24, 2020 0:14:07 GMT -8
So with all of this information how would you all answer my original question/s? Definitions, personal bias, man-made titles, and all other accumulated information aside, the short and most logical line of thinking is this: It has nothing to do with what a person may "identify" as. Biologically, they are still men thus, they have an "unfair" advantage over biological women. So, the answer is NO, they should NOT be allowed to compete.
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Post by Shady on Feb 24, 2020 5:30:51 GMT -8
I will honestly say that I don’t know the answer to this. I believe that trans-women are women and trans-men are men, but you can’t deny that if someone has been through puberty as their birth gender then they still have characteristics of that gender, whatever they are now. The debate is more about trans-women than trans-men when it comes to sport, and Kay is right in that hormones are the key thing. So what then, check hormone levels of competing trans athletes? It adds more complications when you consider athletes with differences in sexual development, like Caster Semenya who I believe someone else has mentioned. It’s like saying that people born with one natural advantage (high testosterone) can’t compete, but people who are taller than average, or have higher lung capacity, or longer arms etc can.
Are trans athletes different to people like Caster, because they made a choice to transition? Is it really a choice if you believe you were born in the wrong body? And is it right that trans individuals can’t compete in professional sports? I honestly don’t know what I think is right, because one way trans people miss out, and the other way cis people are potentially disadvantaged. It’s a really hard topic, and I don’t believe I know enough either way to have a definite opinion.
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Post by 📚 Dianne 📚 on Feb 25, 2020 6:16:36 GMT -8
So with all of this information how would you all answer my original question/s? Definitions, personal bias, man-made titles, and all other accumulated information aside, the short and most logical line of thinking is this: It has nothing to do with what a person may "identify" as. Biologically, they are still men thus, they have an "unfair" advantage over biological women. So, the answer is NO, they should NOT be allowed to compete. Is it also unfair that the girls and their families have to sue to keep their right to compete only with other women and fully transitioned...males. I'm sorry that I can't say the words that a changed male is a female -just like I don't think I would ever be able to think of my niece (if she changes)as anything other than 'her, she, etc'
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Post by bigballofyarn on Feb 25, 2020 6:37:37 GMT -8
There are only two genders. Separate them. There are many genders. There are even more than two sexes that can be biologically assigned. Male, female, and intersex.
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Post by Capitan on Feb 25, 2020 6:53:53 GMT -8
There are many genders. There are even more than two sexes that can be assigned at birth. Male, female, and intersex. Only in a freak of natute. It is not normal or healthy.
It's also wrong to say that it's unhealthy - most people with intersex conditions lead happy, healthy lives.
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Post by wildmaven on Feb 25, 2020 9:36:40 GMT -8
I'd like to remind the members to be respectful when talking about transgender issues, as we have several trans members here.
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Post by User 180565 is taking donation on Feb 25, 2020 9:44:23 GMT -8
Am I really the only one that thinks competing by strength should be common laws in sports? I dont see how people disagree with it. It's just life, if you're stronger then someone you're stronger what's in your pants should have 0 affect.
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Post by daniel on Feb 25, 2020 11:09:53 GMT -8
Am I really the only one that thinks competing by strength should be common laws in sports? I dont see how people disagree with it. It's just life, if you're stronger then someone you're stronger what's in your pants should have 0 affect.
Can we define "competing by strength?"
Can we even define "strength" sufficiently when some sports may be geared towards endurance or precision?
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Post by User 180565 is taking donation on Feb 25, 2020 11:25:59 GMT -8
Am I really the only one that thinks competing by strength should be common laws in sports? I dont see how people disagree with it. It's just life, if you're stronger then someone you're stronger what's in your pants should have 0 affect.
Can we define "competing by strength?"
Can we even define "strength" sufficiently when some sports may be geared towards endurance or precision?
If were talking skill set then gender still means absolutely nothing. If your arm is bigger then someone who maybe more petit then that's how sports should categorize people instead of having one beats all. Sadly that's not how it is. If we look at the Olympics it's always been about the strongest so therefore gender should absolutely still pay 0 role unless we categorize. Categorizing makes things fair, even some stereotypes are true to say because that's the definition of a stereotype although I dont believing saying them some are just true. Sports are about strength yes, but why care about gender. If a person cheats their way by juicing up to the top absolutely disqualify them. However you cant tell me person A) cant out do person b) just because they have a wiener. As their are women that absolutely out strength men with natural parts in every corner. Even with age you cant expect an 80 year old grandma to out precise a 20 year old grandson. So yes I believe sports should absolutely be categorized based on how strong a person not what they have in their pants.
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Post by Retread on Feb 25, 2020 11:29:24 GMT -8
There are only two genders. Separate them. There are many genders. There are even more than two sexes that can be biologically assigned. Male, female, and intersex. Worth noting, there are a multidude of 'intersex' conditions that range from genetics other than XX and XY to developmental deviations from the norm, both prenatal and postnatal during maturation process. Population FiguresThis isn't really new but for the most part we didn't talk openly about such things until recently.
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Post by Retread on Feb 25, 2020 11:51:45 GMT -8
If athletics just competed like wrestling by weight and strength there would be no reason to debate. Wrestling (and boxing and few other competitions) are segregated by weight categories but NOT by strength. I can't imagine a way of determining 'strength' other than possibly a person's results in previous competitions. Also ... Title IX
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Post by aaeiyn on Feb 26, 2020 3:34:37 GMT -8
This is a very complex matter, and I know a lot of people will highly disagree with me. Biologically speaking, men are stronger than women. Even if you're a trans-woman, you're still a biological man that can outperform a biological woman. Therefore, my opinion is that trans-women still belong in an all male sports team. Likewise, trans-men belong in an all female sports team. It all boils down to the biology of it all. I'll even compromise to have four divisions of sports: all male, all female, all trans-women and all trans-men. That's my opinion, and I stand by it.
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