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Post by momoney on Dec 5, 2016 17:11:35 GMT -8
Forum URL: qualitycappers.boards.net/We unfortunately had a few incidents of people posting nudity. I reminded everyone of the rules, and the problem has ceased. My question is, is there a way to find out who reported the "adult material"? Thank you
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Post by Star's Legacy on Dec 5, 2016 21:06:23 GMT -8
You would need to contact the Abuse department by email at abuseteam@proboards.com to discus any reports of TOS violations, but I highly doubt for privacy sake that they will reveal who submitted the report.
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 5, 2016 21:10:52 GMT -8
The Abuse department isn't going to tell you who made the report. That would be a violation of that person's privacy. It's possible nobody reported it. It may have been caught by a staff member associated with the Abuse department. I'd guess they do check up on forums themselves now and then. Best thing to do is ensure your forum is in compliance with ProBoards' ToS at all times. That way, there's nothing for anyone to report.
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Kami
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Post by Kami on Dec 5, 2016 21:33:20 GMT -8
Just in case you're concerned that people posted offending content to get you in trouble intentionally, keep in mind that every report is investigated. If someone posts ToS violating content then reports themselves in order to try and get the forum into trouble, the abuse dept can see that.
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Post by Willow on Dec 5, 2016 22:43:53 GMT -8
Just in case you're concerned that people posted offending content to get you in trouble intentionally, keep in mind that every report is investigated. If someone posts ToS violating content then reports themselves in order to try and get the forum into trouble, the abuse dept can see that.
Technically that may be true, but its easy enough to hide behind a proxy or create fake accounts or even target a forum with a group of people to make it look random. I have heard of people doing this on both PB and Jcink. Sadly, if you make the wrong people upset they can easily sabotage any site. It's sad (IMO) that PB doesn't communicate this better. Hearing about forums that have been up for years and suddenly they are going down at least deserves some type of due process. And the 24 hours notice thing is simply unfair esp considering many admins work for a living and can't be on their site everyday, In addition, we all know the notification system isn't always reliable so some admins could be taken by surprise. Just my 2 pence.
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Kami
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Post by Kami on Dec 5, 2016 23:04:52 GMT -8
While that may be true there is also the timeliness of the posts vs reports; for instance if someone posts a nude picture then immediately reports it, that will be suspicious. Obviously it's not fool proof but nothing is; 'y point primarily was that every report is investigated manually and forums aren't removed by script or anything as soon as a report is made.
Moreover, it's a 48 hour period for warning notifications if and only if the forum as a whole does not violate the ToS; and, if the admin misses the window of opportunity due to not being online, the abuse department has consistently worked with said admins to address the issue if the account shows they weren't online to receive the message within the time period. In no way are forums that can be fixed removed without recourse if the admin wasn't able to see the message; it's only if they log in and ignore the message / neglect to address the issue OR if the forum violates ToS as a while that forums are removed kit and caboodle. If a forum as a whole violates the terms, then what good does a warning do? The admin agreed to abide by the terms of service and if the entirety of the forum goes against that, that is on the admin's head. The onus is not on proboards to remind people of the ToS they agreed to upon registration.
Lastly, while on the one hand some transparency would be nice, by this particular response I can only assume you were not part of his forum when abuse was handled here in the support board by the support admins. There were a plethora of issues that arose when disclosures were made for why forums that violated ToS as a whole were removed. Off the top of my head, harassment and threatening messages to staff, as well as flooding the support board with messages and spam regarding the deletion and arguing with staff and accusing them of lying to purposefully remove their forums all occurred repeatedly. While I am sure there are also other factors that contributed to this decision, some of which I can surmise are legal issues, this was a huge ongoing issue before this policy was enacted.
I can't say I particularly understand why the abuse team cannot state that the forum violated ToS as a whole due to [forum subject], but perhaps an admin can explain. Or failing that, you could always send a message to the abuse department to inquire.
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Post by Willow on Dec 6, 2016 2:18:48 GMT -8
I understand the points you made, my only observation is that they entire way this process is done seems a tad heavy handed. I also understand that doing here in this forum would be a pain. But there has to be a middle ground where people have a chance no matter what the violation (unless its clearly illegal or unethical/immoral). I say this because as we all no he popularity of forums like PB is waning in the face or other social media. I want PB to be around for a long time so I would think, they would want to do what they can to keep as many forums as they can open and work with people to avoid summarily shutting them down with no discussion. Also, if you have a popular forum and its shut down on a Friday it will be down 2-3 days at least until the abuse department is back in the office. Being down for two days with the message they display can cause members to leave for good and never come back because they think its closed permanently. So even if it is something easy to correct, by shutting them down for so long they might as well closed the forum anyway to some extent. Additionally, if a forum has been active for years and all of a sudden its decided to be entirely a violation of the the ToS, I have to ask why did it take so long to be taken down? Some of this type of responsibility should fall on PB in these circumstances as the people who created them most likely had no idea they were doing any thing wrong for years at no fault of their own. Honestly, I have no idea why all of a sudden there is a new rash of forums closing. But I have been here at PB for for close to 4-5 years now and I have never seen so many being shut down at once. I suspect it probably has to do with new advertiser deals that require greater scrutiny or something along that line but like I said above really want PB to be successful and keep as many forums as possible. I would think a company that has as good reputation as PB has for working with the forum owners could devise a more friendly and respectful way to deal with abuse and apparent abuse. There's got to be a better way than it is currently being handled.
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Post by Craig on Dec 6, 2016 4:57:52 GMT -8
I understand the points you made, my only observation is that they entire way this process is done seems a tad heavy handed. I also understand that doing here in this forum would be a pain. But there has to be a middle ground where people have a chance no matter what the violation (unless its clearly illegal or unethical/immoral). I say this because as we all no he popularity of forums like PB is waning in the face or other social media. I want PB to be around for a long time so I would think, they would want to do what they can to keep as many forums as they can open and work with people to avoid summarily shutting them down with no discussion. Also, if you have a popular forum and its shut down on a Friday it will be down 2-3 days at least until the abuse department is back in the office. Being down for two days with the message they display can cause members to leave for good and never come back because they think its closed permanently. So even if it is something easy to correct, by shutting them down for so long they might as well closed the forum anyway to some extent. The problem you have here is that ProBoards also has rules and laws it has to abide by. If there is offending content being hosted, then ProBoards have to handle it in a timely manner, hence the 48 hour warning. As Kami posted, if the warning is missed, then the abuse department will work with the owner to get the forum back online, when the owner contacts them. It would be nice if there was perhaps a suspended message, instead of a delete message, perhaps, but i am not sure of the viability of this; perhaps it is something they will consider. Unfortunately, just because the forum has gone unnoticed for a number of years, doesn't negate the Terms of Service, and the laws of the land. ProBoards does not go around all forums looking for offending content, or a reason to delete the forum, so it is entirely possible that a forum - say one dedicated to illegally downloading movies - could have been online for a few years, and only just been reported to the abuse team. Once it is reported, ProBoards then has to act to get the offending content removed. If the whole forum, and premise of the forum is dedicated to the downloading of movies, then the whole forum has to immediately be removed. I am not sure what data you are basing that off. Perhaps it was the 2-3 topics posted in the past 24 hours, but that happens from time to time. You could then go days without any topics here being posted regarding a forum deletion. This has always been the case. It is perhaps also important to scale it inasmuch as hundreds of forums are created a day, and there are 10s of thousands of active forums, so for 2-3 to be deleted is a very miniscule percentage. To run a scenario past you, and this happened in the late noughties. A sports organisation went on a 'crusade' against sites [ not just ProBoards, but any site ] using it's intellectual property, so showing it's logos, team names, and league tables, or providing streams. for example, and they would gather a list of offending sites and report them in bulk. So you could have multiple sites being reported at the same time, and depending on the type of violation, then you could have a few forums deleted at the same time. To use that scenario, if a forum was displaying logos, trademarked names, or displaying league tables, then they would be given the opportunity to fix those infractions, but if the forum was dedicated to providing links to illegal streams of games or events, then the forum would need to be removed. Regardless of the host, if a complaint is made, then the host has to act on that complaint in an appropriate manner. I used to handle the TOS reports, and know that there will be reports where someone has posted offending content and reported the forum. But these are appropriately handled either by sending a warning to the forum administrator, or the abuse team removing the content, banning the perpetrator and sending a message explaining to the forum administrator. Each report is investigated, and the abuse team will look at the forum as a whole, and if the forum is ordinarily in line with the terms of service, then it is in both ProBoards interests and the forum owner's interests to get the offending content removed and keep the forum going. Long story short, unless your forum's premise is against the terms of service, you shouldn't have concerns about the abuse department and your forum getting deleted. ProBoards wants to host as many forums as possible. It is not in their interest to remove a forum unless it has to, and will work with the forum admin where necessary. You posted you have been here 4-5 years, and there are others that have had forums here for 15 years, and never had any contact with the abuse department.
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Kami
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Post by Kami on Dec 6, 2016 9:05:05 GMT -8
To touch on what Craig said about forums existing for years with violating content, I have a personal anecdote to support the veracity of that statement.
In 2006 I created an RP forum that allowed content of an explicit nature in a "mature" labelled board. I admittedly had not read the ToS in full at the time and was only mimicking what I had seen on other sites. For various reasons the site fell into disuse but the content remained.
In 2010, 2011 or so I got a ToS warning about the explicit material in the site.
1. my forum wasn't immediately removed because the content was contained (i.e. the entire forum was not about explicit content) so there was the opportunity to fix it, hence the warning instead of outright removal
2. the ToS hasn't changed regarding this kind of content ever; the exact wording has been modified over the years but it's never been allowed; just because i didn't immediately get reported doesn't mean it's OK and "suddenly" it's a problem. It means it's always been a problem and I was just found out.
Yes, it is unfortunate that sites can be up for years with violating content and get removed without warning. But again why is the onus on ProBoards to remind them of the ToS? The ToS /is/ your warning, and the PM warning for forums that can fix their violations is a courtesy, not a right. The ToS is a contract and violation of that contract, as stipulated and that you agree to by registering, will result in your removal from the service (i.e. the termination of the contract).
Whether or not you think that's fair is really immaterial because it's what you agreed to. I'm not saying this to be rude; it is just standard practice to terminate a contract if one of the involved parties fails to uphold their end of the deal, so I don't particularly understand why people are so surprised.
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Post by Scott on Dec 6, 2016 9:39:33 GMT -8
Just to cap off what Craig stated, please keep in mind that when you see a thread about a forum being taken down, you hear just that side and 99% of the time it's slanted in their favor. • The Abuse Department is not going to post on support to justify their actions. Not for lack of transparency, but for privacy rights. It would be inappropriate to discuss openly the issues that cause a forum to be deleted. • The Abuse Department is not this big evil giant that stomps on forums like Godzilla just because it can. By law, grievous TOS violations require a forum to be taken offline while investigated. It can be a time consuming process to investigate each report to weed out the truth, to ensure forum violations are not due to spammers, or vengeful members / rival admins on a campaign to sabotage a forum. Inquiries to the Abuse Department may not always be immediately replied to if the investigation if ongoing; and if the violation is of an illegal nature we may be lawfully bound from responding. • Again, please keep in mind that just because you see a thread from an admin feigning innocence about their forum being deleted does not make their story true. Most often it can be last ditch effort to garner sympathy from the masses in an effort to paint us in a bad light. A revenge tactic for being caught. Because of your "concerns" about forum deletions, it works. It makes admins scared, when there is no reason for it. Think about it. Do you really believe someone would post saying: "Hey why did you delete our forum? We were only (selling drugs / posting porn / fill in the blank). We did nothing wrong." •The Abuse Department has successfully worked with innocent admins to restore their forums. Working in the Abuse Department is a difficult job and they're getting a bum rap for protecting your forum experience.
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Come find us again y'all!
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Post by m2marsh on Dec 6, 2016 10:19:59 GMT -8
And just as another example -- one of my forums was up for about a year before it was tagged for a copyright violation. A company complained we were using their name in our title, so Proboards by law had to take it down to investigate. We were unknowingly in the wrong, but in our case, all we had to do was modify our forum name to not use the company's name, and then Proboards brought it back online. Proboards was very responsive to our e-mails and the matter was cleared up within a couple of days.
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Post by Erik Mouse on Dec 7, 2016 1:43:57 GMT -8
Just to cap off what Craig stated, please keep in mind that when you see a thread about a forum being taken down, you hear just that side and 99% of the time it's slanted in their favor. Well, to me, it is hard to tell what is going on when I see a "Section 25(a) Forum Deletion" thread come up and end up thinking it may be true. • The Abuse Department is not going to post on support to justify their actions. Not for lack of transparency, but for privacy rights. It would be inappropriate to discuss openly the issues that cause a forum to be deleted. Sounds to me there would be a lot of trouble happening including numerous people complaining that their privacy rights are being violated, if there were a sub-forum or something opened up for abuse related topics here. • The Abuse Department is not this big evil giant that stomps on forums like Godzilla just because it can. By law, grievous TOS violations require a forum to be taken offline while investigated. It can be a time consuming process to investigate each report to weed out the truth, to ensure forum violations are not due to spammers, or vengeful members / rival admins on a campaign to sabotage a forum. Inquiries to the Abuse Department may not always be immediately replied to if the investigation if ongoing; and if the violation is of an illegal nature we may be lawfully bound from responding. Almost sounds like certain reasons for the abuse department not responding to violation repeals/corrections could be verging on violating first amendment rights, if I'm not mistaken. • Again, please keep in mind that just because you see a thread from an admin feigning innocence about their forum being deleted does not make their story true. Most often it can be last ditch effort to garner sympathy from the masses in an effort to paint us in a bad light. A revenge tactic for being caught. Because of your "concerns" about forum deletions, it works. It makes admins scared, when there is no reason for it. Think about it. Do you really believe someone would post saying: "Hey why did you delete our forum? We were only (selling drugs / posting porn / fill in the blank). We did nothing wrong." •The Abuse Department has successfully worked with innocent admins to restore their forums. Working in the Abuse Department is a difficult job and they're getting a bum rap for protecting your forum experience. Well, the number of "Section 25(a) Forum Deletions" had caused me to get confused and scared to the point that I was close to post on an alternate forum provider's support board regarding the experiences, reasons for being nervous here with Proboards, and to see what plugins/extensions/mods/.etc they may provide that could put them on par with here.
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Post by Willow on Dec 7, 2016 3:59:43 GMT -8
Just to cap off what Craig stated, please keep in mind that when you see a thread about a forum being taken down, you hear just that side and 99% of the time it's slanted in their favor. Well, to me, it is hard to tell what is going on when I see a "Section 25(a) Forum Deletion" thread come up and end up thinking it may be true. • The Abuse Department is not going to post on support to justify their actions. Not for lack of transparency, but for privacy rights. It would be inappropriate to discuss openly the issues that cause a forum to be deleted. Sounds to me there would be a lot of trouble happening including numerous people complaining that their privacy rights are being violated, if there were a sub-forum or something opened up for abuse related topics here. • The Abuse Department is not this big evil giant that stomps on forums like Godzilla just because it can. By law, grievous TOS violations require a forum to be taken offline while investigated. It can be a time consuming process to investigate each report to weed out the truth, to ensure forum violations are not due to spammers, or vengeful members / rival admins on a campaign to sabotage a forum. Inquiries to the Abuse Department may not always be immediately replied to if the investigation if ongoing; and if the violation is of an illegal nature we may be lawfully bound from responding. Almost sounds like certain reasons for the abuse department not responding to violation repeals/corrections could be verging on violating first amendment rights, if I'm not mistaken. • Again, please keep in mind that just because you see a thread from an admin feigning innocence about their forum being deleted does not make their story true. Most often it can be last ditch effort to garner sympathy from the masses in an effort to paint us in a bad light. A revenge tactic for being caught. Because of your "concerns" about forum deletions, it works. It makes admins scared, when there is no reason for it. Think about it. Do you really believe someone would post saying: "Hey why did you delete our forum? We were only (selling drugs / posting porn / fill in the blank). We did nothing wrong." •The Abuse Department has successfully worked with innocent admins to restore their forums. Working in the Abuse Department is a difficult job and they're getting a bum rap for protecting your forum experience. Well, the number of "Section 25(a) Forum Deletions" had caused me to get confused and scared to the point that I was close to post on an alternate forum provider's support board regarding the experiences, reasons for being nervous here with Proboards, and to see what plugins/extensions/mods/.etc they may provide that could put them on par with here. Not to burst your bubble but the First Amendment does not apply to privately owned businesses or organizations. They are free to make as many rules and limitations as they see fit. They own the it, they can make the rules for it. As long as they aren't doing anything illegal/criminal they are free to do what they like.
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Kami
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Post by Kami on Dec 7, 2016 4:31:40 GMT -8
^ To expand on that, the First Amendment states that CONGRESS is prohibited from passing laws that infringe: the freedom to practice religion, freedom of the press, the right to peaceful assembly, and the right to petition the government to rectify grievances.
Not only is ProBoards not Congress, but disallowing content on their (private) service does not fall under any of those restrictions; additionally, the definition of "obscenity" under the first amendment is defined by *the community* not by national standards so even presuming that PB were affected by the laws governing free speech they are still within rights to determine, as the governing body of the PB community, what they consider obscene.
Also: don't judge "how many" forums complaining about removal occur as a reflection of PB's policies. They host over 700,000 (that's seven hundred THOUSAND) forums and every so often you get maybe a half dozen forums or less complaining about this. Obviously not every admin will complain here, but if the amount of posts show anything it's that ProBoards does /not/ remove forums frequently.
Bear in mind as well that you really do see a one sided view here. I recall a thread within the last two weeks wherein an admin claimed their forum was shut down "for no reason"; I looked up a cached page of their forum and they were using it as a base of operations to hack and doxx individuals + organise mass ddos efforts, and to teach others how to do the same. They way they presented their case, however, claimed innocence and that PB was unjustified in removing the forum as it did not violate ToS.
I'm not saying every complaint is false, only to take them with a grain of salt because you do not see the content that was reported. Even righteous indignation can theoretically serve a manipulative purpose in order to skew public perception.
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Post by Scott on Dec 7, 2016 8:39:38 GMT -8
Well, the number of "Section 25(a) Forum Deletions" had caused me to get confused and scared to the point that I was close to post on an alternate forum provider's support board regarding the experiences, reasons for being nervous here with Proboards, and to see what plugins/extensions/mods/.etc they may provide that could put them on par with here. So have your fears been allayed then?
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