What is v5

[Ryan Roos]

What Chris has said is correct. We even have a nice way of quick searching and displaying accounts by the same people. So you don't even have to do all this manual comparing everyone seems to do in v4. You click a button on someones account (even a guest post) and you can see all the other accounts by that person displayed in a nice little list.

[moonbeam]

I think that'll be much easier, Ryan.

[Chris]

Aug 3, 2012 14:15:58 GMT -8 Ryan Roos said:

What Chris has said is correct. We even have a nice way of quick searching and displaying accounts by the same people. So you don't even have to do all this manual comparing everyone seems to do in v4. You click a button on someones account (even a guest post) and you can see all the other accounts by that person displayed in a nice little list.

It was fun to play with. ;D And by play with, I mean I looked at it and didn't actually use it while there.

[Ajay]

Aug 3, 2012 14:21:27 GMT -8 Chris said:

Aug 3, 2012 14:15:58 GMT -8 Ryan Roos said:

What Chris has said is correct. We even have a nice way of quick searching and displaying accounts by the same people. So you don't even have to do all this manual comparing everyone seems to do in v4. You click a button on someones account (even a guest post) and you can see all the other accounts by that person displayed in a nice little list.

It was fun to play with. ;D And by play with, I mean I looked at it and didn't actually use it while there.

Aww. I thought that you actually did get to use it, i was all hyped up for a second.

[Rick Ace]

Aug 3, 2012 14:15:58 GMT -8 Ryan Roos said:

What Chris has said is correct. We even have a nice way of quick searching and displaying accounts by the same people. So you don't even have to do all this manual comparing everyone seems to do in v4. You click a button on someones account (even a guest post) and you can see all the other accounts by that person displayed in a nice little list.

I said that doesn't resolve my personal problem. But oh well.

[Kylesw555]

It doesn't look like the admins are going to budge on this or any of their decisions, we seem to be able to request a feature to be added but not taken away.

The system wasn't broke so why fix it? I haven't once heard anyone complain about us seeing their E-Mail Address, not on my forum nor on this Forum. So keeping it the same as it is now isn't going to upset anybody yet changing it as you're suggesting is upsetting some people (others who haven't seen this yet may feel the same) so why take the option that you have?

[Ryan Roos]

Aug 3, 2012 18:05:56 GMT -8 Kylesw555 said:

It doesn't look like the admins are going to budge on this or any of their decisions, we seem to be able to request a feature to be added but not taken away.

The system wasn't broke so why fix it? I haven't once heard anyone complain about us seeing their E-Mail Address, not on my forum nor on this Forum. So keeping it the same as it is now isn't going to upset anybody yet changing it as you're suggesting is upsetting some people (others who haven't seen this yet may feel the same) so why take the option that you have?

Because in v5 public emails are security risk.

Email addresses are classified as personal information, like a person's phone number. Individuals need to give them out willingly. Recently, worldwide there has been a major shift online to protect people's personal information. Governments are passing laws to protect people's information online (often forcing companies to adhere to new standards regarding privacy). Cookies and IP Addresses are also included in this shift. In Europe now you can't even use cookies on your website without notifying the user because you are violating their privacy. This shift isn't just happening there, it is also slowly happening here in North America.

We are respecting people's privacy and increasing security.

We take all discussions with you into consideration. We are very public in discussing these things (can you name another company that takes so much feedback from its customers and actually does things with it?). We very often do listen to you guys and we have fulfilled the majority of request from members, including changing things back from what we were taking away or modifying in a way you guys didn't like.

• I have explained in detail why we are doing this. It's not a small reason. It's a big deal. I doubt the majority of members would vote for less account security.
  
• I have suggested multiple solutions to dealing with this change. Literally giving you ways that will essentially make it identical to v4 from the admin point of view (any differences you might complain about my suggested methods and the way it is now would be a violation of the terms of service).
  
• It is not a matter of ignoring you or not budging on our decision. It is a security concern. We hear what you are saying and we have given you all the tools you need to preform every action related to emails, including the emails from members themselves.
  

You say we aren't listening to you. We are. That's why I've spent numerous posts explaining it and giving you solutions. Honestly it feels like you aren't listening to me. You are making a huge deal out of something that you will still be able to do in v5. And at the same time we can protect member privacy while increasing security. I don't know what more I can say about this topic.

[NSX05]

Aug 3, 2012 20:58:12 GMT -8 Ryan Roos said:

Cookies and IP Addresses are also included in this shift.

I hope you're not taking IP addresses away from us too?

Aug 3, 2012 20:58:12 GMT -8 Ryan Roos said:

any differences you might complain about my suggested methods and the way it is now would be a violation of the terms of service

Elaborate; I don't understand.

[Kylesw555]

Asking for a members I.P Address isn't breaching their privacy or security because no-one is forcing them to register, they have the choice during registration to say no they don't want me to have their E-Mail Address but as it's mandatory I will not register to this forum.

So I really don't see the big deal.

[Ajay]

The big deal is that the new Global Login depends on the email addresses. So say you somehow manage to guess his or hers password. You will have access to all the forums they set up with that one email.

[Ryan Roos]

Aug 3, 2012 22:29:04 GMT -8 NSX05 said:

Aug 3, 2012 20:58:12 GMT -8 Ryan Roos said:

Cookies and IP Addresses are also included in this shift.

I hope you're not taking IP addresses away from us too?

Aug 3, 2012 20:58:12 GMT -8 Ryan Roos said:

any differences you might complain about my suggested methods and the way it is now would be a violation of the terms of service

Elaborate; I don't understand.

You still have all the same functionality regarding IP Addresses that you currently do (just like emails). You can search by IP, Ban by IP (in multiple ways), and we even added functionality since now you can see multiple accounts by IP.

You can use the new Email Members page in the admin area to email members, groups, staff or everyone. This solves any problem with needing emails.

In v4 members are not given the option to provide emails or not because ProBoards needs them for registration. They can however make their email hidden. Though it still displays for admins. When v4 was coded years ago this wasn't as much privacy concern. However, times are changing. The TOS has forbidden admins from using any personal info including email addresses for a long time.

In v4 if the member didn't wish to hide their email then they essentially are agreeing to it displaying in their profile. This is the equivalent of them entering it in v5 using a custom field in their profile. They are literally the same. Members willingly placing their email into their profile. That's fine. However it is not fine to use that email for any personal reason. The TOS forbids the use of personal information and specifically lists emails.

What I meant is any complaint that admins can no longer see hidden emails (or emails that people don't choose to enter in the custom field in v5) would be an admission that they are violating the terms of service and using emails they are not supposed to be using for personal use.

Technically they aren't supposed to be using any emails for personal use. And honestly debating this constantly is only drawing a big spot light on the whole thing. I've been trying to work with people at finding solutions, but I keep running in circles explaining things instead.

At registration members are providing ProBoards with their email, they are agreeing to the ProBoards Terms of Service at signup. They are not agreeing anywhere to give the forum administrator their email address for personal use. There is a section for receiving emails from other members and this is for the mass email feature, not for admins to email them from their own email addresses. So if an admin wants an email address for contact purposes then they can create a custom field and members can provide an email (hopefully not their login email). Or any of the other methods I suggested for dealing with this (assuming this entire concept isn't shut down because of what a big deal is being made out of something so small, again not my call, I'm trying to help you guys and I just get argued with).

I think people tend to forget that the forums are ProBoards forums and that every member agrees to the ProBoards Terms of Service when they sign up. Everyone is a ProBoards member already. Admins are concerned they are losing power, when all we have done is given them even more tools to administrate and increased security and privacy for members. We have maintained all functionality from v4 and added even more with regards to emails, IP addresses, usernames, etc. Any use of that information beyond use on the forum is a violation of the TOS. These things are private information and in certain places are protected by law.

[NSX05]

Aug 4, 2012 8:44:58 GMT -8 Ryan Roos said:

You still have all the same functionality regarding IP Addresses that you currently do (just like emails). You can search by IP, Ban by IP (in multiple ways), and we even added functionality since now you can see multiple accounts by IP.

That's good.

Aug 4, 2012 8:44:58 GMT -8 Ryan Roos said:

What I meant is any complaint that admins can no longer see hidden emails (or emails that people don't choose to enter in the custom field in v5) would be an admission that they are violating the terms of service and using emails they are not supposed to be using for personal use.

Technically they aren't supposed to be using any emails for personal use. And honestly debating this constantly is only drawing a big spot light on the whole thing. I've been trying to work with people at finding solutions, but I keep running in circles explaining things instead.

I understand now but I couldn't care less about the emails. I was just asking for an elaborate description of what you were trying to say.

[Kylesw555]

Yes we can add the field to ask for E-Mail Addresses but there is no way of policing a rules that E-Mail Addresses are required for registration to our forums should we choose to make that so.

[Martyn Dale]

Its an EU legality that people have to opt in to any mailing lists. Therefore asking them in a new box to enter it for your purposes would adhere to that. Using their email for anything other than forum signup and mass email functionality etc (Which has its own opting in/out process) is against those rules and why our ToS prohibits any form of scraping of user data.

This is the EU's doing in setting these various laws. We are not going to provide users with ways to break these laws.

[Kylesw555]

So we can't say that members must share their E-Mail Addresses with us to have a membership on our forums anymore? Despite the fact that this is within the EU Law as long as we make it clear that to opt out they have to delete their accounts from our forums.