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Hero Prinny
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August 2016
heroprinny
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Post by Hero Prinny on Sept 19, 2016 14:47:19 GMT -8
Firstly a note, I'm posting this later, after many new replies have been made. Had to go do something, and came back to all these new replies. So this reply was mostly written before them, with a paragraph added to address a point raised.
But I agree with the sentiments expressed by Leif personally. I pay currently for a forums.net site, because I started on this host and I enjoyed what I saw done by designers. And personally I made the choice to support giving our RPG community the benefits of forums.net as seen at the time. I could expand greatly on the ways Proboards has increasingly disappointed me. But Leif has vocalised things far better than I ever could, what it is that primarily worries me.
All I know is that I'm feeling more unhappy with Proboards as time passes. Put plainly, that I don't feel like the satisfaction of myself and my friends matters as much as it once did. And I know that if the current low end price was to replace what I pay each month, or if I was looking at paying for a forums.net site now, I would not be able to ever justify that expense. Even for the RPG community I'm part of and adore, I simply don't have the means and financial security to pay that much for a hobby. A well loved and very therapeutic hobby, but still a hobby. No matter how much I love the family we've built, and no matter how much I want to provide extras like a higher content rating to the site I have.
I know, it was a choice to pay for forums.net, but that was a choice then that I was happy to make, to support Proboards as well as giving more to the RPG I'm part of. Not everyone can or will want to pay for their RPG, I understand that. Yet I thought by paying a monthly amount to Proboards, that it would mean my satisfaction as a customer would matter. And I trusted Proboards to still think of the number of RPG forums that might take them up on the offer of a premium forum. The site I'm part of has been on forums.net for a good long while now. Which makes it all the more disappointing to feel forgotten, by seeing this seemingly big shift towards higher cost monthly plans. I didn't know before scarcely how much a forum could come to cost, and I can't profess to understand entirely still that matter. But the current 'low end' plan for forums.net, strikes me as alienating and ignoring the hobbyists who might use your service. I know forum hosting is a business, but it isn't only businesses that helped to build Proboards into such a popular host. Nor is it only businesses that consider purchasing premium forum plans.
As for the point raised of how you're aiming to appeal to businesses, I can accept that. I can admit to feeling disappointed, yet I can accept that fact. What I find hard to swallow is that a site like mine that have been paying for forums.net for a good long while, and we started doing so before the migratory plan was removed and the low cost plan significantly increased. I worry for our content and for everything that our members have built and created, frankly.
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Post by Kami on Sept 19, 2016 14:54:43 GMT -8
Perhaps the deeper issue, aside from the rising costs, is that FDN was originally marketed, in part, as the solution to the content rating issue many PB RPers had. I remember it constantly being offered as a solution when a site would come to the support board complaining about a TOS warning for mature content etc.
The shift to making FDN business-centric, while perhaps understandable from a financial standpoint for ProBoards, does not seem (at least from my outsider's perspective) to have taken into consideration those non-business groups who jumped on the FDN wagon and stayed. And now that data migration is no longer offered, I think it's become a very valid concern that if non-business FDN clients can no longer keep up with the rising costs, that they'll lose their content & data.
While I still hope that ProBoards would consider some sort of service similar to FDN but geared more towards personal / hobby use, I think the crux of the concerns here are the rising costs with seemingly no way to mitigate them without losing communities.
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Tim Camara
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Post by Tim Camara on Sept 19, 2016 15:18:03 GMT -8
Just two quick notes here: - We've never increased the price of FDN for existing customers. The price you started paying when you signed on is still the price you're paying now. We don't have plans to ever change that fact.
- The vast, vast majority of forums that transferred from ProBoards to Forums.net have already either transferred back or gone extinct. There is not a significantly large group of former ProBoards forums left on Forums.net. This is one of the facts that influenced our previous decisions to remove the bridge between the two.
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#e61919
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Michael
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wiseowl
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Post by Michael on Sept 19, 2016 15:18:51 GMT -8
Is it true that we would lose content if we left the paid service to transfer back onto the unpaid service? If so, that's a huge problem for leaving the paid model, as we have been dedicated and respectable users of the paid servers and have years of content that would be lost. If not, then this paragraph is moot. Additionally, having the resources to afford a paid service isn't quite the issue here: it's that other, cheaper services with more features exist, and we haven't made a swap because, as I have implied, we have been loyal to ProBoards. We want PB to be the best it can be, and we don't think that means raising prices just because they can be raised. I have been on ProBoards since I started role-playing on forums. I've loved the free service, despite its (understandable) limitations on content, among other things. We went into then paid service with all of that in mind. I think, despite the fact that the paid service is (at least now) geared towards businesses and not RP communities, we have been thrown under the base, no matter how you try to twist it. If you decided to switch back then any and all content that violates the ProBoards TOS or Community Guidelines would have to be removed. You always have the option of moving that content elsewhere and we are by no means saying it has to be deleted. However, we cannot allow that content on ProBoards no matter how long you have been a customer on FDN. It would be unfair to other users on PB and we couldn't run advertisements on your forum, which is what allows us to make the forum free to use. I don't think we have ever altered pricing just because we can. We have always done so for a reason and with a purpose. This is part of why the cost of ad-free and other features has remained the same for so long despite the fact that our costs in that area continue to rise. We don't ever want the pricing of our products to feel unfair compared to what you receive. I'm in no way trying to twist any part of this conversation. I just want to be frank about the reason we made some business decisions and the thinking that went into them. If you feel like we threw you under the bus, then that's fair. I can't claim that we were able to consider absolutely every user in absolutely every scenario. We however, did try our best. We want every single one of our users to be happy with our products. We had to make the best decisions we can in order to continue to grow and advance as a company and so that we can continue to offer an amazing product to our users and offer them an even better product in the future. Michael - I can understand that. I mean obviously I'm not asking that you disclose all the PB finances and stuff, haha. I just feel like perhaps there could be a middle ground. I know I'd be willing to pay more than the $10 / month but the bare minimum of $100 / mo is really steep! A couple of months ago I even decided I'd be able to shell out the $50 / mo for the lowest plan but I see that has also been removed. Far it be from me to tell you guys what is and isn't possible, but I am struggling to think that there cannot be a compromise between spending less than 200 per year and spending over 1000 per year. I totally get this. I worked for years to be able to achieve the dream you're describing. I want to be able to offer unlimited and content-restriction-free forums to our users for the same cost as ad-free. The reality is that it just isn't feasible for us as a business. While you might be able to reach a middle ground with us on price, how many people would be willing to pay the same price for the same features? How big is that market? What new features would we need to develop to effectively service and attract that market? How much support will that product get? There is a lot of consideration and angles that need to be considered to make this possible. At the end of the day it just doesn't pan out favorably for either party.
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Post by Kami on Sept 19, 2016 15:30:22 GMT -8
Michael - honestly the content restriction really isn't a thing for me since I'm not comfortable with content that exceeds a PG rating in my RPs. Call me a boring ol' fuddy duddy guys xD but while i get what you're saying, maybe creating a product separate from FDN and proboards (with the ability to migrate, if feasible) might be the next step -- I don't think that RP communities really need the business things you offer on FDN, and really just look for ad free + content restriction free + white label like i said -- i don't want to presume to tell y'all how to run your business or that i know the inner workings. but saying that it doesn't pan out favourably for either party i feel is a little preemptive. if personal plans on FDN didn't work out, is that just it for ProBoards? are there no other ideas? not in a mean way, just kind of like, is there nothing else anyone can think of to try?
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#e61919
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Michael
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wiseowl
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Post by Michael on Sept 19, 2016 15:40:09 GMT -8
Michael - honestly the content restriction really isn't a thing for me since I'm not comfortable with content that exceeds a PG rating in my RPs. Call me a boring ol' fuddy duddy guys xD but while i get what you're saying, maybe creating a product separate from FDN and proboards (with the ability to migrate, if feasible) might be the next step -- I don't think that RP communities really need the business things you offer on FDN, and really just look for ad free + content restriction free + white label like i said -- i don't want to presume to tell y'all how to run your business or that i know the inner workings. but saying that it doesn't pan out favourably for either party i feel is a little preemptive. if personal plans on FDN didn't work out, is that just it for ProBoards? are there no other ideas? not in a mean way, just kind of like, is there nothing else anyone can think of to try? I personally spent weeks of time trying to put something together that allows us to do this. The bottom line is that it would cost more than $9.99 a month. In conjunction with this, when we launched Forums.net and offered the $9.99 plan we watched as virtually all but a small handful of forums that came from PB steadily left (back to PB) as they each decided it was too expensive of unfeasible for them to remain on FDN for one reason or another. We essentially ran this experiment for months and months and at the end of the day, the demand just isn't there at the price point we would need to charge in order to at least break even.
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Post by Kami on Sept 19, 2016 15:48:59 GMT -8
Michael - honestly the content restriction really isn't a thing for me since I'm not comfortable with content that exceeds a PG rating in my RPs. Call me a boring ol' fuddy duddy guys xD but while i get what you're saying, maybe creating a product separate from FDN and proboards (with the ability to migrate, if feasible) might be the next step -- I don't think that RP communities really need the business things you offer on FDN, and really just look for ad free + content restriction free + white label like i said -- i don't want to presume to tell y'all how to run your business or that i know the inner workings. but saying that it doesn't pan out favourably for either party i feel is a little preemptive. if personal plans on FDN didn't work out, is that just it for ProBoards? are there no other ideas? not in a mean way, just kind of like, is there nothing else anyone can think of to try? I personally spent weeks of time trying to put something together that allows us to do this. The bottom line is that it would cost more than $9.99 a month. In conjunction with this, when we launched Forums.net and offered the $9.99 plan we watched as virtually all but a small handful of forums that came from PB steadily left (back to PB) as they each decided it was too expensive of unfeasible for them to remain on FDN for one reason or another. We essentially ran this experiment for months and months and at the end of the day, the demand just isn't there at the price point we would need to charge in order to at least break even. Then would it be possible to add upgrades on the proboards side of things? i don't know how content restriction would work on pb with the global TOS and everything, but like, there are already elements of the old personal package on pb, could some of the things like the white label and whatnot be added as additional upgrades to the free service?
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The Dream Crusher (Ret.)
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Apr 1, 2014 11:00:25 GMT -8
Tim Camara
Teach a man to fish, etc., etc.
1,721
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tcamara
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Post by Tim Camara on Sept 19, 2016 15:54:49 GMT -8
We literally attempted exactly what you're asking for in regards to relaxed content restrictions. It didn't work. We can't really discuss all the gritty details in public, but the legal walls we ran into means that relaxed content restrictions on ProBoards are not a thing that will ever, or can ever, happen. Outside of that, what else is there that Forums.net has that you really want? InSite and SSO? These are features so specific to business use-cases, I can't imaging RPers really wanting to pay for them. Phone support? Is the support here not good enough? How can we improve it? White label? Is this enough better than ad-free that you'd pay higher than ad-free prices for it?
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The Jedi Master of Proboards PBS Oscars: Most Unique
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Nov 19, 2012 0:15:08 GMT -8
Tommy Huynh
Coffee isn't my cup of tea.
19,374
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Post by Tommy Huynh on Sept 19, 2016 15:55:22 GMT -8
I personally spent weeks of time trying to put something together that allows us to do this. The bottom line is that it would cost more than $9.99 a month. In conjunction with this, when we launched Forums.net and offered the $9.99 plan we watched as virtually all but a small handful of forums that came from PB steadily left (back to PB) as they each decided it was too expensive of unfeasible for them to remain on FDN for one reason or another. We essentially ran this experiment for months and months and at the end of the day, the demand just isn't there at the price point we would need to charge in order to at least break even. Then would it be possible to add upgrades on the proboards side of things? i don't know how content restriction would work on pb with the global TOS and everything, but like, there are already elements of the old personal package on pb, could some of the things like the white label and whatnot be added as additional upgrades to the free service?
Kami, May I ask what would the benefit of having white label on Proboards be?
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Post by Kami on Sept 19, 2016 15:59:57 GMT -8
We literally attempted exactly what you're asking for in regards to relaxed content restrictions. It didn't work. We can't really discuss all the gritty details in public, but the legal walls we ran into means that relaxed content restrictions on ProBoards are not a thing that will ever, or can ever, happen. Outside of that, what else is there that Forums.net has that you really want? InSite and SSO? These are features so specific to business use-cases, I can't imaging RPers really wanting to pay for them. Phone support? Is the support here not good enough? How can we improve it? White label? Is this enough better than ad-free that you'd pay higher than ad-free prices for it? Like I said I can't speak for the content issues since that's not an aspect I'm interested in, so I'll leave it to the other posters to comment.
But really -- white label? Yes. Yes I would pay for white label services. Not $100 a month mind you, but if there was an adfree + whitelabel package I would. Obviously you can't go just by me but I'm throwing my vote in for something like that. Heck I was already willing to go to FDN for $50/mo mainly for the white label and the ad free, would likely not have used anything else in the personal / small business package.
Then would it be possible to add upgrades on the proboards side of things? i don't know how content restriction would work on pb with the global TOS and everything, but like, there are already elements of the old personal package on pb, could some of the things like the white label and whatnot be added as additional upgrades to the free service?
Kami, May I ask what would the benefit of having white label on Proboards be? Honestly I'm thinking from a design aspect here. It's a pain in the butt to design around the PB stuff, so if I am already paying for adfree + my own domain + domain masking, why not a reasonable / logical amount more to get rid of the rest of it?
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Post by Kami on Sept 19, 2016 16:03:30 GMT -8
Then would it be possible to add upgrades on the proboards side of things? i don't know how content restriction would work on pb with the global TOS and everything, but like, there are already elements of the old personal package on pb, could some of the things like the white label and whatnot be added as additional upgrades to the free service?
No, in order to not upset our advertisers (who allow us to offer free forums), we can't have any of that content on any ProBoards related domain. That's fair. I think I'll bow out from the topic now because what you're saying is fair, albeit disappointing. I just know that I'd pay for FDN if the personal package came back. Or even the $50/mo package. If it's not cost effective for you then I by no means expect y'all to take things at a loss.
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Post by Michael on Sept 19, 2016 16:04:16 GMT -8
We literally attempted exactly what you're asking for in regards to relaxed content restrictions. It didn't work. We can't really discuss all the gritty details in public, but the legal walls we ran into means that relaxed content restrictions on ProBoards are not a thing that will ever, or can ever, happen. Outside of that, what else is there that Forums.net has that you really want? InSite and SSO? These are features so specific to business use-cases, I can't imaging RPers really wanting to pay for them. Phone support? Is the support here not good enough? How can we improve it? White label? Is this enough better than ad-free that you'd pay higher than ad-free prices for it? Like I said I can't speak for the content issues since that's not an aspect I'm interested in, so I'll leave it to the other posters to comment.
But really -- white label? Yes. Yes I would pay for white label services. Not $100 a month mind you, but if there was an adfree + whitelabel package I would. Obviously you can't go just by me but I'm throwing my vote in for something like that. Heck I was already willing to go to FDN for $50/mo mainly for the white label and the ad free, would likely not have used anything else in the personal / small business package.
Kami, May I ask what would the benefit of having white label on Proboards be? Honestly I'm thinking from a design aspect here. It's a pain in the butt to design around the PB stuff, so if I am already paying for adfree + my own domain + domain masking, why not a reasonable / logical amount more to get rid of the rest of it?
Totally honesty here: I think you're a unique case. I really don't see anything more than perhaps a person or two more that fit in to the same category as you. Edit: I deleted my previous response that Kami partially quoted above because I felt like I was oversimplifying and Tim had already elaborated more successfully than I did. Just thought I should clarify.
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The Jedi Master of Proboards PBS Oscars: Most Unique
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Tommy Huynh
Coffee isn't my cup of tea.
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Post by Tommy Huynh on Sept 19, 2016 16:06:25 GMT -8
Michael, there are definitely some additional users I am sure, who would love the personal packages to come back. I can think of a few forums who'd definitely benefit from that. That being said, I totally understand (and support) the business decisions. I ran businesses too and have to make decisions on what is best for the business.
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#e61919
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Michael
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wiseowl
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Post by Michael on Sept 19, 2016 16:08:05 GMT -8
Michael , there are definitely some additional users I am sure, who would love the personal packages to come back. I can think of a few forums who'd definitely benefit from that. That being said, I totally understand (and support) the business decisions. I ran businesses too and have to make decisions on what is best for the business. I'm positive that you're right. I'm sure there are some people who would love and use personal packages. However as we've seen, those forums don't seem to last (or just get too costly for the individual paying for it). It's just an unfortunate truth.
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Post by Kami on Sept 19, 2016 16:09:58 GMT -8
Like I said I can't speak for the content issues since that's not an aspect I'm interested in, so I'll leave it to the other posters to comment.
But really -- white label? Yes. Yes I would pay for white label services. Not $100 a month mind you, but if there was an adfree + whitelabel package I would. Obviously you can't go just by me but I'm throwing my vote in for something like that. Heck I was already willing to go to FDN for $50/mo mainly for the white label and the ad free, would likely not have used anything else in the personal / small business package.
Honestly I'm thinking from a design aspect here. It's a pain in the butt to design around the PB stuff, so if I am already paying for adfree + my own domain + domain masking, why not a reasonable / logical amount more to get rid of the rest of it?
Totally honesty here: I think you're a unique case. I really don't see anything more than perhaps a person or two more that fit in to the same category as you. Edit: I deleted my previous response that Kami partially quoted above because I felt like I was oversimplifying and Tim had already elaborated more successfully than I did. Just thought I should clarify. :) awww u think im unique? *fluttery eyelashes*
But seriously though, that's fair. I mean, I'm bummed but it's totally fair. I agree with Tommy though that I can think of forums who would benefit from a lower cost package, but as y'all have said repeatedly it didn't work out so there's really not much more to add.
I do think that lief et al. might have more to add when they return, since I believe a lot of their issues stem around content + price + lack of migration.
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