Disappointment in ProBoards and Forums.net.

[Hero Prinny]

I'm about to sleep, so I am going to be focusing on my main concern. I love proboards, I greatly enjoy the experience I've had on this host. Still I'm concerned and I have something to ask, because I am one of those that likes to have answers and cover all my bases even if something never happens, and I'd like a concrete and plain answer. I'm glad to get an answer on the matter of whether there is a possibility we could ever be forced onto the newer plan prices, so thank you Tim Camara for that. It's a relief to have an answer on that. 

Still if my site, if we ever made the decision to stop paying for the plan we have, what would happen then? Since the migratory plan as I understand is no longer an obligatory extra you offer for forums.net, what would that mean for us? My site, we have a lot of content made during our time on forums.net. I understand content inappropriate for the TOS of the free proboards service would have to be dealt with. But if something was to happen and we were to decide to stop paying what we currently do, would be able to transfer all appropriate forum content back to a free forum? Is there any guarantee of that? Since that service is no longer one you guarantee in your current plans; would we be able for sure, to transfer back to a free forum?

My concern first and foremost is my members, naturally. And it feels like there's been too much uncertainty, or I feel that way with the information I've gotten personally, with the change in plans offered.

[Former Member]

Sept 19, 2016 16:58:44 GMT -8 Tommy Huynh said:

Sept 19, 2016 16:29:03 GMT -8 @synthtec said:

So you are basically paying for priority support. Ok

It's more than just that. There's a lot of features that are really beneficial to businesses. For example, we own the content. The staff literally cannot access my forum without my explicit permission granting them to do so.

At any given time, I can also export a database of all forum content if I wish.

Sure, Ok, again I don't know that business model, If it works for you, then cool. The edge case here is
not everyone is getting the same as you? I'm just trying to understand all of your queries.

[Kami]

Sept 19, 2016 19:11:18 GMT -8 @synthtec said:

Sept 19, 2016 16:58:44 GMT -8 Tommy Huynh said:

It's more than just that. There's a lot of features that are really beneficial to businesses. For example, we own the content. The staff literally cannot access my forum without my explicit permission granting them to do so.

At any given time, I can also export a database of all forum content if I wish.

Sure, Ok, again I don't know that business model, If it works for you, then cool. The edge case here is
not everyone is getting the same as you? I'm just trying to understand all of your queries.

No, everyone gets the same service based on what they pay for (like x package gets the x package service and so on).

The problem is that because FDN is geared towards businesses, non-business users are struggling with costs + the prospect of losing data if they ever wish to stop hosting with FDN -- and then the flip side: new non-business forums cannot join FDN because of the removal of the cheaper packages (9.99 - 49.99) since they don't have revenue to keep up with it.

[Willow]

Sept 19, 2016 17:47:43 GMT -8 mmhmm said:

As has been explained, efforts to create a format in which relaxed content could be offered as an option, either paid or free. Legal roadblocks were encountered that put that idea out of reach. I doubt those legal roadblocks have disappeared. Between those legal problems and the need to maintain a viable business plan I can understand why ProBoards has decided to go the way its going. Nobody wants the law down their backs and all businesses want to be able to continue to do business!

 
The major legal roadblock is the advertisers agreement did not allow for any mature content. The advertisers on PB did not want to be associated with mature material. 

As there is no advertising on FDN, this is not an issue and FDN is a separate entity altogether, thus there was no restrictions.

PB totally has it within their power to create another entity that can provide the service that these people desire. They can even still have ads on this entity but this time around they would have to have a clause in the contract letting all advertising entities know that there may be mature content on some sites.

I know of at least three other forum providers that do this and from I can tell have all the same advertising that PB has and they allow mature content.

I suspect that PB has done the maths and doing this might night be as lucrative as their PB contract is. So from a money perspective it may not be worth it to them. 

But it could be done, its just its not worth it to PB which is totally fine. It's their ship and they decide where it goes!



 

[Former Member]

Sept 19, 2016 19:15:25 GMT -8 Kami said:

Sept 19, 2016 19:11:18 GMT -8 @synthtec said:

Sure, Ok, again I don't know that business model, If it works for you, then cool. The edge case here is
not everyone is getting the same as you? I'm just trying to understand all of your queries.

No, everyone gets the same service based on what they pay for (like x package gets the x package service and so on).

The problem is that because FDN is geared towards businesses, non-business users are struggling with costs + the prospect of losing data if they ever wish to stop hosting with FDN -- and then the flip side: new non-business forums cannot join FDN because of the removal of the cheaper packages (9.99 - 49.99) since they don't have revenue to keep up with it.

Ok that makes sense! I can understand people's dismay with that. Honestly? why buy such a package If you don't know what to to with it though?

[Kami]

Sept 19, 2016 19:31:54 GMT -8 @synthtec said:

Sept 19, 2016 19:15:25 GMT -8 Kami said:

No, everyone gets the same service based on what they pay for (like x package gets the x package service and so on).

The problem is that because FDN is geared towards businesses, non-business users are struggling with costs + the prospect of losing data if they ever wish to stop hosting with FDN -- and then the flip side: new non-business forums cannot join FDN because of the removal of the cheaper packages (9.99 - 49.99) since they don't have revenue to keep up with it.

Ok that makes sense! I can understand people's dismay with that. Honestly? why buy such a package If you don't know what to to with it though?

Because no content restriction barring illegal stuff. Many RP forums like the ability to exceed the PG13 rating allowed by the freeforums, and as has been said a few times, FDN was once offered as the solution to this restriction. However, PB has stated that the cheaper options (such as the personal plan) were not cost effective. While those who stayed with FDN apparently keep the rate they joined at, they cannot create new forums with FDN / others cannot join FDN at those prices anymore, hence the alienation that the OP is talking about.

It's not why I would go for an FDN forum (while I used to run 'mature' forums in the past it was always under the encouragement of my co-admin / friend and i wasn't really a part of it), I'm after the white label feature. But the concern about content restriction is overwhelmingly why RP forums would consider FDN.

[Former Member]

Sept 19, 2016 16:58:44 GMT -8 Tommy Huynh said:

Sept 19, 2016 16:29:03 GMT -8 @synthtec said:

So you are basically paying for priority support. Ok

It's more than just that. There's a lot of features that are really beneficial to businesses. For example, we own the content. The staff literally cannot access my forum without my explicit permission granting them to do so.

At any given time, I can also export a database of all forum content if I wish.

such as?

[Former Member]

Sept 19, 2016 19:33:36 GMT -8 Kami said:

Sept 19, 2016 19:31:54 GMT -8 @synthtec said:

Ok that makes sense! I can understand people's dismay with that. Honestly? why buy such a package If you don't know what to to with it though?

Because no content restriction barring illegal stuff. Many RP forums like the ability to exceed the PG13 rating allowed by the freeforums, and as has been said a few times, FDN was once offered as the solution to this restriction. However, PB has stated that the cheaper options (such as the personal plan) were not cost effective. While those who stayed with FDN apparently keep the rate they joined at, they cannot create new forums with FDN / others cannot join FDN at those prices anymore, hence the alienation that the OP is talking about.

It's not why I would go for an FDN forum (while I used to run 'mature' forums in the past it was always under the encouragement of my co-admin / friend and i wasn't really a part of it), I'm after the white label feature. But the concern about content restriction is overwhelmingly why RP forums would consider FDN.

Oh come on now, the law states such rules.PG13 is implied on most websites/forums.
Define "mature" content?

[Tommy Huynh]

Sept 19, 2016 19:35:59 GMT -8 @synthtec said:

Sept 19, 2016 16:58:44 GMT -8 Tommy Huynh said:

It's more than just that. There's a lot of features that are really beneficial to businesses. For example, we own the content. The staff literally cannot access my forum without my explicit permission granting them to do so.

At any given time, I can also export a database of all forum content if I wish.

such as?

Single sign on, insite forwarding, 100% uptime. We own the content, we create our own Registration, terms of service and privacy policies.

Sept 19, 2016 19:46:21 GMT -8 @synthtec said:

Sept 19, 2016 19:33:36 GMT -8 Kami said:

Because no content restriction barring illegal stuff. Many RP forums like the ability to exceed the PG13 rating allowed by the freeforums, and as has been said a few times, FDN was once offered as the solution to this restriction. However, PB has stated that the cheaper options (such as the personal plan) were not cost effective. While those who stayed with FDN apparently keep the rate they joined at, they cannot create new forums with FDN / others cannot join FDN at those prices anymore, hence the alienation that the OP is talking about.

It's not why I would go for an FDN forum (while I used to run 'mature' forums in the past it was always under the encouragement of my co-admin / friend and i wasn't really a part of it), I'm after the white label feature. But the concern about content restriction is overwhelmingly why RP forums would consider FDN.

Oh come on now, the law states such rules.PG13 is implied on most websites/forums.
Define "mature" content?

For example, my members like to post explicit pictures. *sighs*

[Kami]

Sept 19, 2016 19:46:21 GMT -8 @synthtec said:

Sept 19, 2016 19:33:36 GMT -8 Kami said:

Because no content restriction barring illegal stuff. Many RP forums like the ability to exceed the PG13 rating allowed by the freeforums, and as has been said a few times, FDN was once offered as the solution to this restriction. However, PB has stated that the cheaper options (such as the personal plan) were not cost effective. While those who stayed with FDN apparently keep the rate they joined at, they cannot create new forums with FDN / others cannot join FDN at those prices anymore, hence the alienation that the OP is talking about.

It's not why I would go for an FDN forum (while I used to run 'mature' forums in the past it was always under the encouragement of my co-admin / friend and i wasn't really a part of it), I'm after the white label feature. But the concern about content restriction is overwhelmingly why RP forums would consider FDN.

Oh come on now, the law states such rules.PG13 is implied on most websites/forums.
Define "mature" content?

You seem surprised, so I take it you do not venture much into the RP world. There's a system most forums use called the RPG Rating System. For Language, Sex, and Violence respectively, each category is given a 0-3 rating. A huge number of forums would love to be 3/3/3 and ARE, but ProBoards hosted forums tend to stop at 2/2/2 or 2/1/2 due to its PG 13 limits.

I take it you weren't here for the restructuring of the ad board & the reformatting of the PB TOS layout / verbiage, but as the person who moderated the ad board during that time I can assure you that of the RP boards advertised, I locked threads a half dozen + times per day because the forums posted did not follow the TOS with regards to the rating restriction. Some had it scattered throughout the forum by explicitly stating their site was rated 'R' or 'M' or 'NC-17', others had a dedicated board / category. I know for a fact there are still some forums out there flying under the radar with mature content.

The lack content restriction, I assure you, is the largest reason RP sites are attracted to FDN services.

[Boy_Wonder]

As someone who enjoys content without restrictions I'm also looking for new options that are cheaper without being able to use forums.net to host. I've been thinking this for a while

[leif]

Hello all! I've been rather busy today. I did not mean to cause a feud of us all. We are all here, on this Support Forum, because we all love and enjoy using ProBoards as a service. Many of us have been with ProBoards for many years. I myself, created my very first ProBoards message board on January 15, 2002. I have been around for a long time.

From my perspective, I personally wouldn’t mind an ad-free forum with looser restrictions. I do not need priority support. Half of the time we have support requests, they aren’t things that cannot be helped with regardless, it’s mostly interactions of feature requests, which we have made several. We have also made bug reports, to this day, over a year, some still exist. Anything that was a priority bug, was fixed rather quickly.

I appreciate the talk about v6 and how it shall triumph over v5, but, v5 was messy. It was scary. I’m not keen to go through that again. I felt v6’s announcement was rather fast, and to me it basically made me wonder if ProBoards abandoned all hope for v5 and is ready to dump it and move on. The 4 to 4.5 transition was beautiful. 3 to 4 was pretty good too. 4 to 5 terrified me, and to a handful of RPGs I respected, and enjoyed, they left because of the loss they felt. Don’t get me wrong, I am excited to see what ProBoards does next. When ProBoards’ development team has an idea in mind, they tend to do extremely well with that set of features. There are so many ways to branch out on it. They’re very good at keeping a lot of the interfaces simple, which is perfect.

I personally loved, and enjoyed Forums.Net for the comfort and freedom, as Sam said. I am not going to break down the semantics of cost, again. Now, I understand ProBoards is all dedicated servers. I know many of them were once provided for by The Planet. I even saw the superbowl commercial with Patrick Clinger in it. ProBoards does have an amazing staff team behind it, especially now, it’s far better than it has ever been. They’re active, we no longer have to wait days, or find our threads abandoned when we need help. Their staff is on top of it all for the free users. Hell, half of the posts I’ve made in ProBoards Support’ forums have had faster response rates than Forums.net ones. This is amazing to me. ProBoards’ staff is on top of their game for the free version of their software.

I do appreciate the time you all took to get back to me. I am frustrated. But, as an RPG Administrator, I do not care about “white label” or fancy business terms. All I want is complete freedom to control my own forum. The database being available is huge and being able to bring data to ProBoards is also huge and finally makes ProBoards on par, and equal to every other free active forum provider on the planet right now (most require you to pay for it).

I appreciate the features made to try and cater to ProBoards’ RPGs, but, many of them did not carry over to the Forums.net, where we tried to go for content freedom. Custom pages Is an amazing feature. The avatar maker, I have never once seen an RPG forum use it, on my own RPGs, we disabled that entirely, to enforce certain photos for use of a standard mini-profile we completely redesigned. I know that ProBoards is trying to be diverse, but, ProBoards was left in the dark, years ago and is struggling to keep up with features that most RPGs are now taking for granted.

As for my work, I work in a strange tech job, where it is my actual day, job to tell clients no. I deal with businesses, that became so extremely bloated, they don’t even know what they have any more. But, it doesn’t really relate to forums at all. My business is a niche.

Honestly, I do not ever want to spend more than a few percent of my income on hosting. Forums.net costs 8% of California’s minimum wage after taxes and government fees. I use Forums.Net for a hobby. But, it outprices my other hobbies. We’re terrified of growth, our own Forums.net is starting to see fees around $30-$40 a month, when we’re hovering around 250-300k page views. It’s starting to cost more than a top of the line seedbox, just for a small website with 30 unique people as members.

Personally, I don’t care about White Label, feel free to slap powered by your name all you want on premium tiers, all the paid professional softwares do that, and charge a leg and an arm to go white label. That could be an enticing extra. But, I don’t see the point for myself, personally. Everyone already knows it’s ProBoards/FDN. I don’t need priority support, being lumped into the Support forum is fine by me.

We haven’t had 100% uptime guaranteed on the dedicated servers. Forums.net often goes down when all of ProBoards.com goes down. From what I remember, we never been automatically pro-rata’d for any of it. I cannot easily find the rates any longer for our old plans anyways. But, Willow is right for me. ProBoards’ staff is amazing, when something breaks and we find a bug. You guys are bomb at fixing them. But, it is now a question to me: our content freedom or paying a hefty fee. For a new RPG I wanted to do? It’s now content freedom or paying a hefty fee, what to sacrifice? Should I sacrifice realistically $250 a month, because RPer friends I have like to refresh the same topics as they wait for response to just have some artistic freedom? With that, as a price quote now… It is immediately cheaper to buy a great hosting plan for a year or a great software.

To me: Forums.net completely gutted out all the hobbyists. There was a reason the plan was called Hobbyist, I thought.

I love ProBoards. Why else have I stuck around for 14 years? I just wish there was more feasible options for my hobby to stay with ProBoards in the future and not to be limited by ProBoards.

[leif]

Sept 20, 2016 3:57:32 GMT -8 @plastictrucker said:

I appreciate the talk about v6 and how it shall triumph over v5, but, v5 was messy. It was scary. I’m not keen to go through that again. I felt v6’s announcement was rather fast, and to me it basically made me wonder if ProBoards abandoned all hope for v5 and is ready to dump it and move on.

In the case of my forum, the move from V4 to V5 was made messy due to the lack of acceptance of something new by my members. The vast majority of them flat out hated it, it was "fear of the unknown" and pretty much a case of not liking change. It cost me many members, and even after all of this time they still like the "old way" better. I fear the move from V5 to V6 will be even worse.  

v4 to 4.5 was a beautiful move. Added a great deal of features, without scaring users.

[Michael]

Sept 19, 2016 18:17:09 GMT -8 Hero Prinny said:

I'm about to sleep, so I am going to be focusing on my main concern. I love proboards, I greatly enjoy the experience I've had on this host. Still I'm concerned and I have something to ask, because I am one of those that likes to have answers and cover all my bases even if something never happens, and I'd like a concrete and plain answer. I'm glad to get an answer on the matter of whether there is a possibility we could ever be forced onto the newer plan prices, so thank you Tim Camara for that. It's a relief to have an answer on that. 

Still if my site, if we ever made the decision to stop paying for the plan we have, what would happen then? Since the migratory plan as I understand is no longer an obligatory extra you offer for forums.net, what would that mean for us? My site, we have a lot of content made during our time on forums.net. I understand content inappropriate for the TOS of the free proboards service would have to be dealt with. But if something was to happen and we were to decide to stop paying what we currently do, would be able to transfer all appropriate forum content back to a free forum? Is there any guarantee of that? Since that service is no longer one you guarantee in your current plans; would we be able for sure, to transfer back to a free forum?

My concern first and foremost is my members, naturally. And it feels like there's been too much uncertainty, or I feel that way with the information I've gotten personally, with the change in plans offered.

If you ever needed to move back to a free forum then I'm sure we could work something out with you. 

Sept 20, 2016 5:10:34 GMT -8 @plastictrucker said:

Sept 20, 2016 4:21:25 GMT -8 leif said:

v4 to 4.5 was a beautiful move. Added a great deal of features, without scaring users.

I personally like what we currently have. If there was an option to stay with V5, instead of upgrading to V6, I would be very happy to keep things as they are. Perhaps a mid upgrade to something like V5.5 would be less scary from a user standpoint. It would help calm the fears that members are most likely going to have. I have also found that my younger members are much more willing to accept the change, which didn't really surprise me to be perfectly honest, but I also don't want to alienate my older members.

You really should think of v6 as v5.5. In fact, that's what it originally started out. In the transition from v4.5 to v5 we actually needed to take things offline and upgrade each forum individually. This is no longer the case at all! There won't be any "big switch" to v6. When you're ready to make a v6 theme all you'll need to do is just make a theme, or download it from the library. Users will be able to switch over at their leisure. 

Don't forget we're also going to be running v5 alongside v6 for at least 18 months. Eventually the new features will entice you to install a new theme and check it out, no pressure needed.

[♥ ℒʊ√ ♥]

Don't forget we're also going to be running v5 alongside v6 for at least 18 months. Eventually the new features will entice you to install a new theme and check it out, no pressure needed.

I hope that's true, Michael .

My members hated going from v4 to v5 and we lost numerous very active posters.

Now, members are dreading v6 and what that will bring.

So I'm hoping/praying there is lots of truth in that statement!