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avinalaff
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Post by Barkley on Apr 3, 2016 17:48:56 GMT -8
Forums with general chit chat, Barkley . Ones with lots of games with one word answers or lots of one sentence posts like "How are you today". Things of that nature where continuity isn't really necessary. And I don't demean these forums since we're General Chat.
That's not the case with forums like RPGs where story lines and characters interact and become the foundation of the forum.
It's certainly not a one size fits all type of thing. But with so many forums lamenting their lack of activity with just a handful of active members, it just seems counterproductive to set up conditions that might not benefit perspective members.
But again, if that's what some choose to do, if it becomes an option, that would be their right as admin to do so. Saying most forums is akin to saying most people. We simply can't make a blanket statement as they're all different.
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Jan 26, 2013 13:30:48 GMT -8
♥ ℒʊ√ ♥
Clouds float into my life no longer to carry rain or usher storm but to add color to my sunset sky.
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January 2013
luv
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Post by ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ on Apr 3, 2016 17:56:09 GMT -8
Exactly. That's why I said one says doesn't fit all. So ProBoards' does its best to fit most.
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avinalaff
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Post by Barkley on Apr 3, 2016 18:00:39 GMT -8
Exactly. That's why I said one says doesn't fit all. So ProBoards' does its best to fit most.
So you agree that if they're all different, then your own experiences won't apply to them, and therefore mass post deletion 'could' destroy other forums? Then do you also agree that it is a huge matter for concern, and one that should be reconsidered by VS Admin ? By discussing it, we don't bring a problem to him, but a solution.
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May 18, 2024 17:35:04 GMT -8
Gravy Train
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January 1970
GUEST
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Post by Gravy Train on Apr 3, 2016 18:08:23 GMT -8
I'd like to humbly point out one small flaw here. You're only looking at this from one side of the coin. Is it not possible that all those people are requesting mass post deletions on that particular forum because of administration there? I'm not saying this is the case, as I don't belong to that forum, but the possibility exists that this could be the reason. Whether it is or not, we may never know. I do know that if I belonged to a forum where administration was mean or iron-fisted or whatever that takes away from my enjoyment there, I'd probably ask to have all my posts mass deleted and then I'd delete my account there - as I wouldn't want anything that tied me to such a forum. Seeing all these recent requests for mass deletion does not imply that those users are in a collaboration. This may be the case, but one cannot state (and have it read as factual), and I quote: "...that clearly there is a collaboration occurring between members there..." because we don't know the facts of why these requests are being done. For all we know, it could be a mixture of circumstances. *shrug* I think my disclaimer didn't have the desired effect ........... I understood this to mean my admin team was backing me up and supporting the no deletion policy. What happened was I gave "too much freedom" to my mods, and a group of them rage quit; they didn't agree with the ideology of a direct democracy. Fine, no skin off my nose, the mods were replaced, but they deleted all their posts when they left. As did one last member. HOWEVER, ALL THE THREADS SHE STARTED WERE DELETED. THE WHOLE ENTIRE THREAD- INCLUDING OTHER MEMBERS' POSTS!This was done purely out of spite. As site owner, I was never contacted by proboards, and it affected more than that one member. I don't know who ladydi PM'd, I don't think I saw it, but it felt like it was done rather rashly. Whatever. Internet drama happens. But the point I was going to make earlier was that if I create a document at work, say, a training manual, it belongs to the company. I contributed, and there it stays. People can edit or delete their posts, or request for an admin to do it. I'm sorry, but as site owner, it chafes my butt that I wasn't even consulted by proboards. Listen to both sides of the story, right? What right does one person have to harm everyone else? Not everyone saves their ideas in word documents. Some of us have jobs and an actual life, too? Lol! I know it's hard to believe. Ok I'll try & remember my login so you guys can verify, I'm just really busy right now. So my mods were trying to help out, not team up.
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joannski3
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Post by Gravy Train on Apr 3, 2016 18:10:42 GMT -8
Hi it's me again. I logged in like a good girl
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Jan 26, 2013 13:30:48 GMT -8
♥ ℒʊ√ ♥
Clouds float into my life no longer to carry rain or usher storm but to add color to my sunset sky.
10,458
January 2013
luv
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Post by ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ on Apr 3, 2016 18:12:23 GMT -8
Barkley,
If you've been reading my posts, I've said repeatedly that I don't oppose an option.
But ultimately, a business follows the law. And the law states that we all own that which we create. It's an implied copyright.
And whether one reads the ToS or not, they do tick the box that they agree to the ToS.
And I'm just not too sure how many perspective members will agree to an option that allows the use of their property should they leave the forum.
Forums must be appealing to the public. And most of the public wants the right to delete their contributions.
I don't belong to Facebook, but I would tend to believe they allow their members the right of deletion of posts they have submitted.
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Kami
Forum Cat
Posts: 40,064
Mini-Profile Theme: Kami's Mini-Profile
#f35f71
156500
0
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Jul 24, 2021 11:48:29 GMT -8
Kami
40,064
July 2010
kamiyakaoru
Kami's Mini-Profile
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Post by Kami on Apr 3, 2016 18:35:23 GMT -8
You know, I think the argument of Forums.net versus ProBoards is a moot point because the point is the deletion of posts on ProBoards forums. Maybe a bad example, but it feels very "if you don't like it, get out" and I think that's a harmful attitude if you desire to affect change. Yes, forums.net is a subsidiary of ProBoards but the blithe suggestion of moving there for literally one feature is at best a $120 USD annual expense for a single desired feature. If ProBoards values its customer base, then this conversation is a very healthy thing for them. Members should feel they have the option to propose changes to policy without being told to just pay money to use something else. I can also posit, based on my past experience modding the advertisement board here on support, that a vast majority of people who would benefit from some sort of arrangement that has been proposed in this thread cannot afford, or otherwise cannot purchase a Forums.net subscription. Additionally, it has been said several times over the past few weeks at least the Forums.net's model has been moving away from essentially a pay-for version of ProBoards for general use and is becoming geared specifically for the use of businesses: I.E., entities that would likely have the revenue and budget to accommodate the annual cost, and not the average individual. As the responses in this thread clearly indicate (albeit a small sample size) it's not just a one-off occurrence but rather a concern shared by not only multiple people, but people who have incredibly varied forum types. VS Admin has clearly stated he is open to hearing ideas and brainstorming from the people who do want some sort of ability to be involved prior to posts being deleted from their forum, and the suggestion to move to Forums.net is not conducive to this conversation. I do not intend to be disrespectful (and I do apologise if it comes across this way), but I think a more productive use of this thread, instead of arguing whether or not to move to Forums.net and the pros/cons of it, would be to attempt to brainstorm ways that ProBoards can find a happy medium where administrators who are concerned about deletions affecting their forums negatively can feel reassured, without compromising the intellectual property of the average user. EDIT: as far as legality is concerned, I have already proposed at least one way there can be a work around that is within the realm of legality (using the guidelines of fair use and creative commons licenses) [though standard 'I'm not a lawyer' disclaimers here, just speaking from what I am able to do in the capacity of my work as an artist and being able to draw fanart of licensed franchises for profit]. It's not outside the realm of possibility to work with the laws that are in place, and I really think it would be beneficial if the focus shifted from why Plan A won't work, to trying to think of Plans B and further.
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Mar 23, 2016 19:15:19 GMT -8
Barkley
1,590
December 2012
avinalaff
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Post by Barkley on Apr 3, 2016 18:50:03 GMT -8
Barkley ,
If you've been reading my posts, I've said repeatedly that I don't oppose an option.
But ultimately, a business follows the law. And the law states that we all own that which we create. It's an implied copyright.
And whether one reads the ToS or not, they do tick the box that they agree to the ToS.
And I'm just not too sure how many perspective members will agree to an option that allows the use of their property should they leave the forum.
Forums must be appealing to the public. And most of the public wants the right to delete their contributions.
I don't belong to Facebook, but I would tend to believe they allow their members the right of deletion of posts they have submitted.
I'll leave you to consider your last post as it's almost 4am here. 1. It's not the law at all, so please don't quote laws. By posting you give the forum provider license to your post. If they don't want to delete they don't have to. (That's fact btw not opinion) 2. Perspective members haven't made any posts and therefore I'm not concerned about them. You can delete their posts with pleasure. 3. It's not their property unless the law states it is - good luck establishing that because it doesn't - read above. 4. "Your opinion", not fact, suggests forums 'must' be this or that, and again suggests if it's not what 'you' think then it won't be appealing. Millions of forums don't allow it and do very well. 5. Most of the public? didn't we cover that already? 6. Facebook - is irrelevant. It is the highest ranking website in the world, but it is not the law and you post there under their T&C's. You can ask them to change their T&C's too if you want to try. It's Proboards T&C's that are relevant here. Still, no offence meant. It's important to establish you are offering an opinion, and not facts, when discussing things of importance don't you think?
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Kami
Forum Cat
Posts: 40,064
Mini-Profile Theme: Kami's Mini-Profile
#f35f71
156500
0
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Jul 24, 2021 11:48:29 GMT -8
Kami
40,064
July 2010
kamiyakaoru
Kami's Mini-Profile
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Post by Kami on Apr 3, 2016 18:53:14 GMT -8
Barkley ,
If you've been reading my posts, I've said repeatedly that I don't oppose an option.
But ultimately, a business follows the law. And the law states that we all own that which we create. It's an implied copyright.
And whether one reads the ToS or not, they do tick the box that they agree to the ToS.
And I'm just not too sure how many perspective members will agree to an option that allows the use of their property should they leave the forum.
Forums must be appealing to the public. And most of the public wants the right to delete their contributions.
I don't belong to Facebook, but I would tend to believe they allow their members the right of deletion of posts they have submitted.
I'll leave you to consider your last post as it's almost 4am here. 1. It's not the law at all, so please don't quote laws. By posting you give the forum provider license to your post. If they don't want to delete they don't have to. (That's fact btw not opinion) 2. Perspective members haven't made any posts and therefore I'm not concerned about them. You can delete their posts with pleasure. 3. It's not their property unless the law states it is - good luck establishing that because it doesn't - read above. 4. "Your opinion", not fact, suggests forums 'must' be this or that, and again suggests if it's not what 'you' think then it won't be appealing. Millions of forums don't allow it and do very well. 5. Most of the public? didn't we cover that already? 6. Facebook - is irrelevant. It is the highest ranking website in the world, but it is not the law and you post there under their T&C's. You can ask them to change their T&C's too if you want to try. It's Proboards T&C's that are relevant here. Still, no offence meant. It's important to establish you are offering an opinion, and not facts, when discussing things of importance don't you think? :) I hate to be a party pooper, but #1 is incorrect. The DMCA does state that if you can prove ownership of intellectual property, the service is required to delete the content upon request unless you agree to relinquish rights to the IP. # 3 is also incorrect because copyright does extend to the minute there is a tangible form of the intellectual property, be it digital or otherwise, without having to file for copyright.
With ProBoards' current ToS, the only license they take with user-submitted content is the ability to display the content through their service, and that they do not actually own any of the content & that users are not relinquishing ownership.
EDIT FOR CLARITY: This is not to say that a middle ground cannot be reached, it's just that your first and third points aren't correct.
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Jan 26, 2013 13:30:48 GMT -8
♥ ℒʊ√ ♥
Clouds float into my life no longer to carry rain or usher storm but to add color to my sunset sky.
10,458
January 2013
luv
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Post by ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ on Apr 3, 2016 19:02:09 GMT -8
Correct, Kami ~
We've already posted this.
Intellectual property has implied copyright the minute it is created by someone.
It is important to differentiate the law from opinion, Barkley , and your numbers 1 and 3 are not correct.
And Facebook, being the highest ranking website, should be taken into consideration. They are doing something right. And one of the things they are doing right is allowing members to delete their material. You don't become #1 by not catering to the public and what they desire.
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Kami
Forum Cat
Posts: 40,064
Mini-Profile Theme: Kami's Mini-Profile
#f35f71
156500
0
Offline
Jul 24, 2021 11:48:29 GMT -8
Kami
40,064
July 2010
kamiyakaoru
Kami's Mini-Profile
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Post by Kami on Apr 3, 2016 19:04:44 GMT -8
Correct, Kami ~ :)
We've already posted this.
Intellectual property has implied copyright the minute it is created by someone.
It is important to differentiate the law from opinion, Barkley , and your numbers 1 and 3 are not correct.
And Facebook, being the highest ranking website, should be taken into consideration. They are doing something right. And one of the things they are doing right is allowing members to delete their material. You don't become #1 by not catering to the public and what they desire. With all due respect, ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ , in this case I don't think Facebook should be considered because the purposes of the two platforms are entirely different. Facebook is a social network, while ProBoards is a message board. Facebook is inherently personal, while ProBoards caters to a large variety of types of content. What needs to be considered here is not what a social media platform's policies are, but what policies will benefit the users of ProBoards. While the argument can be made that generally all users would benefit from a blanket ability to remove all posts, ProBoards should also consider the needs of those who administrate communities under their platform.
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Mar 23, 2016 19:15:19 GMT -8
Barkley
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avinalaff
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Post by Barkley on Apr 3, 2016 19:05:59 GMT -8
I think my disclaimer didn't have the desired effect ........... I understood this to mean my admin team was backing me up and supporting the no deletion policy. What happened was I gave "too much freedom" to my mods, and a group of them rage quit; they didn't agree with the ideology of a direct democracy. Fine, no skin off my nose, the mods were replaced, but they deleted all their posts when they left. As did one last member. HOWEVER, ALL THE THREADS SHE STARTED WERE DELETED. THE WHOLE ENTIRE THREAD- INCLUDING OTHER MEMBERS' POSTS!This was done purely out of spite. As site owner, I was never contacted by proboards, and it affected more than that one member. I don't know who ladydi PM'd, I don't think I saw it, but it felt like it was done rather rashly. Whatever. Internet drama happens. But the point I was going to make earlier was that if I create a document at work, say, a training manual, it belongs to the company. I contributed, and there it stays. People can edit or delete their posts, or request for an admin to do it. I'm sorry, but as site owner, it chafes my butt that I wasn't even consulted by proboards. Listen to both sides of the story, right? What right does one person have to harm everyone else? Not everyone saves their ideas in word documents. Some of us have jobs and an actual life, too? Lol! I know it's hard to believe. Ok I'll try & remember my login so you guys can verify, I'm just really busy right now. So my mods were trying to help out, not team up. I'm genuinely sorry to hear about your situation. As you'll appreciate, this thread is designed to ensure it doesn't happen to other forums (it's not specifically about your loss) and it would be cool to explore avenues that convince Proboards to rethink their moral stance. Morality works in many ways, and PB's decision is based upon what they currently perceive to be the best way to handle a situation 'morally', and certainly not because the law deems they must. It's up to us to put a case forward that shows that what they are doing has as many 'immoral' complications as it does moral. If VS Admin says it stops, it stops, and he's the guy people need to convince, not other admins.
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tacochuck
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Post by T.C. on Apr 3, 2016 19:06:48 GMT -8
9.99 a month is well wort it for my forum and it's members. I have refunded many members donations due to the donations far exceeding the cost to maintain the forum. Just knowing that i get one on one support when needed and having the ability to export the forum data, as well as being away from the content restrictions of pg13 (We're all 40 and older) 9.99 is and has been well worth it. If Forums.net was 9.99 per month, and they allowed migration to it more would use it. As it is, it starts at $49.99 per month for 100,000 page views, plus $0.08 per 100 extra, and our website apparently broke 200,000 views last week, so in my book, that would have cost me an extra $80 on top of the $50 already charged. Then if you want support you have to take a ticket. So you don't get to use this admin forum? So my forum, that gets lots of page views from bots, but very little by way of forum posts, would have cost me $130 per month or $1560 per year (for a basic package). Compare that to Wordpress Business package with no adverts for $299 per year and you see how expensive forums.net is. You can understand why I have little time for people who jump on your case with "Go to forums.net" every time you have a query. This thread is about Proboards though, not forums.net so our fight is to protect our Proboards forums, NOT rip them up and start again elsewhere. It was 9.99 a month and you could migrate when i switched. I am able to keep that plan as long as i wish. Creation of a ticket is required to grant the staff permission to enter your forum. We're a private forum so bots don't eat up pageviews and most of us have been hanging out on the net for 15 years or so so and they know there's costs involved and are more than willing to help out. What works for us won't work for all The cost comparison to word-press is closer than it appears. As shown in the image below, i have 50,000 pageviews at 9.99 and at 200,62 views it would be 42.00, not in addition to but total cost for the month. I wasn't promoting but rather clearing up some misunderstandings on how FDN works.
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Post by Barkley on Apr 3, 2016 19:09:03 GMT -8
I'll leave you to consider your last post as it's almost 4am here. 1. It's not the law at all, so please don't quote laws. By posting you give the forum provider license to your post. If they don't want to delete they don't have to. (That's fact btw not opinion) 2. Perspective members haven't made any posts and therefore I'm not concerned about them. You can delete their posts with pleasure. 3. It's not their property unless the law states it is - good luck establishing that because it doesn't - read above. 4. "Your opinion", not fact, suggests forums 'must' be this or that, and again suggests if it's not what 'you' think then it won't be appealing. Millions of forums don't allow it and do very well. 5. Most of the public? didn't we cover that already? 6. Facebook - is irrelevant. It is the highest ranking website in the world, but it is not the law and you post there under their T&C's. You can ask them to change their T&C's too if you want to try. It's Proboards T&C's that are relevant here. Still, no offence meant. It's important to establish you are offering an opinion, and not facts, when discussing things of importance don't you think? I hate to be a party pooper, but #1 is incorrect. The DMCA does state that if you can prove ownership of intellectual property, the service is required to delete the content upon request unless you agree to relinquish rights to the IP. # 3 is also incorrect because copyright does extend to the minute there is a tangible form of the intellectual property, be it digital or otherwise, without having to file for copyright.
With ProBoards' current ToS, the only license they take with user-submitted content is the ability to display the content through their service, and that they do not actually own any of the content & that users are not relinquishing ownership.
EDIT FOR CLARITY: This is not to say that a middle ground cannot be reached, it's just that your first and third points aren't correct.
It might be a good idea if people read the first 2 posts of this thread again, as I can guarantee at least one of those people knows the law that governs what he can or can't do in the country that governs his business. Also, I added a cookie disclaimer to my site today because the laws where 'I' fall under says I have to. Good luck with it all.
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Jan 26, 2013 13:30:48 GMT -8
♥ ℒʊ√ ♥
Clouds float into my life no longer to carry rain or usher storm but to add color to my sunset sky.
10,458
January 2013
luv
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Post by ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ on Apr 3, 2016 19:09:29 GMT -8
Kami , no disrespect taken. We'll agree to disagree about that!
ProBoards, Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat, etc. are all competing in the social media market.
And to compete and be relevant, one needs to attract membership. And what terms and policies attract members is relevant if one wants to be competitive.
There was a time when forums were the place to be. Now, there is so much competition for the market that one must be consumer friendly if they want consumer share.
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