Kami
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Post by Kami on Apr 3, 2016 19:10:14 GMT -8
I hate to be a party pooper, but #1 is incorrect. The DMCA does state that if you can prove ownership of intellectual property, the service is required to delete the content upon request unless you agree to relinquish rights to the IP. # 3 is also incorrect because copyright does extend to the minute there is a tangible form of the intellectual property, be it digital or otherwise, without having to file for copyright.
With ProBoards' current ToS, the only license they take with user-submitted content is the ability to display the content through their service, and that they do not actually own any of the content & that users are not relinquishing ownership.
EDIT FOR CLARITY: This is not to say that a middle ground cannot be reached, it's just that your first and third points aren't correct.
It might be a good idea if people read the first 2 posts of this thread again, as I can guarantee at least one of those people knows the law that governs what he can or can't do in the country that governs his business. :) I was speaking specifically to the grounds of intellectual property, which is why ProBoards allows the ability to submit DMCA takedown notices for copyright infringement, rather than posts as a whole, if that makes sense. Sorry for the misunderstanding! EDIT: ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ , you can disagree with me, and that is fine, but it's factual that the type of service offered by ProBoards and Facebook are different and that ProBoards should consider its users, rather than what works for Facebook. (:
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Post by ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ on Apr 3, 2016 19:12:41 GMT -8
Barkley ~
www.copyright.com/Services/copyrightoncampus/basics/law.html
Copyright protection exists from the moment a work is created in a fixed, tangible form of expression. The copyright immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author, or those deriving their rights through the author, can rightfully claim copyright. In the case of works made for hire, the employer—not the writer—is considered the author.
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Post by Barkley on Apr 3, 2016 19:12:51 GMT -8
It's 4.12am so goodnight and sweet dreams lol.
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Kami
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Post by Kami on Apr 3, 2016 19:15:51 GMT -8
Barkley ~
www.copyright.com/Services/copyrightoncampus/basics/law.html
Copyright protection exists from the moment a work is created in a fixed, tangible form of expression. The copyright immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author, or those deriving their rights through the author, can rightfully claim copyright. In the case of works made for hire, the employer—not the writer—is considered the author. Perhaps the issue here is what defines a "work". From the same website: Under these guidelines it's unlikely that the average chat post would fall under these protections. When I did agree with you in my prior post, it was with the assumption that you were speaking of intellectual property, in other words works that would be protected under these guidelines, rather than the average post. As Barkley said, it is definitely worth reading Pat's post on page one. (:
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Post by ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ on Apr 3, 2016 19:40:58 GMT -8
Actually, I think Pat's post on page 1 sums it up and we've done what he's asked.
Given our opinions and probably then some.
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Post by ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ on Apr 3, 2016 19:43:07 GMT -8
When I did agree with you in my prior post, it was with the assumption that you were speaking of intellectual property, in other words works that would be protected under these guidelines, rather than the average post. That is what I meant, Kami .
For many of our members it is their photographs and original artwork that they post.
Or personal information such as photos of family, children, etc.
Posts in game threads, etc. wouldn't count as copyrighted works.
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Post by Kami on Apr 3, 2016 19:49:16 GMT -8
When I did agree with you in my prior post, it was with the assumption that you were speaking of intellectual property, in other words works that would be protected under these guidelines, rather than the average post. That is what I meant, Kami .
For many of our members it is their photographs and original artwork that they post.
Or personal information such as photos of family, children, etc.
Posts in game threads, etc. wouldn't count as copyrighted works. That's fair, but it wouldn't be a blanket assumption to make about other forums, you know? No offence meant, it did seem in some (though not all) of your posts that you were referring to all posts on all forums as being protected by copyright, which is I think where the confusion occurred.
In any case, I think all anyone wants is for admins to be involved in the process, whether it's disallowing certain posts to be deleted, or opting for fair use, or something else.
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Post by ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ on Apr 3, 2016 20:05:20 GMT -8
As I said, I have no problem with an option, Kami .
As I posted upthread ~ We do not own their words, their photographs, their intellectual property. They belong to the member alone. By words, I meant writings, not "how are you?" or posts in games, etc.
But yes, I have no problem with all posts being removed from my board by a member or by ProBoards ~ not because of copyright, but as a service.
If they no longer wanted their contributions to be a part of our community, I would feel very uncomfortable insisting they remain.
But again, that is speaking for myself.
And I've also advised members if they wish to keep "custody" of their photos, they should host them on a site. In that way, they can simply move those photos to another album on that host and it would break the link in their posts. In that way, they have some control over their content.
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Post by Lady Dyanna on Apr 3, 2016 20:06:52 GMT -8
It's right there in the current ToS agreement. You might own your words, but when you sign up you are entering into an irrevocable agreement to allow Proboards to display your words in perpetuity. The only exception to this clause appears to be personal information included in the privacy policy. When each member agreed to the ToS upon creating their accounts, they have already given up the right to demand deletions.
It sounds like Proboards has been trying to give its members the benefit of the doubt that there is indeed a good reason for the requested deletion and has assisted members in performing this task without question. The problem seems to be that not all of these members are requesting these deletions in good faith. Many are done from spite or a desire to harm the board in question. In addition there is always the possibility of unintended consequences with each deletion.
It seems to me that there should easily be some compromise between honoring all deletion requests without question and flat out prohibiting it. I believe that it would be good practice to attempt to contact the forum in question automatically when a deletion request is received prior to approving or following through with actually deleting the posts. Some forums, especially general chat forums, might be perfectly fine with the content being deleted. Others might have certain areas of the forum that might contain different types of posts. For example chat and game areas might be fine to be deleted, but resource information, group theory crafting and role playing sections might be less able to tolerate a mass deletion. In these types of circumstances, it might be more appropriate to compromise on which areas posts should be deleted from. It becomes more of a problem when things go to extreme ends of the spectrum, either approving or denying the requests without question or investigation. I'm sure that there are many admins that would be more than willing to work with support to come to a conclusion that is acceptable to all parties involved.
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Post by VS Admin on Apr 3, 2016 22:00:54 GMT -8
Hi all, I'm going to be locking this thread (too much going in circles, and I think we've gotten the feedback we asked for. Further to this I'll discuss the policy internally with the team this week and inform you all if there is any change to that policy. Also, if a forum was affected by a mass deletion that removed postings that should not have been removed, please create a new support thread so that we can look into that issue. Further to this, I want to clear up some misconceptions in this thread. 10. FORUM CONTROL; MEMBER DISPUTES ProBoards does not control the forums made available by means of the Website and Services. Forum administrators and moderators reserve the right, in their sole discretion, to delete or modify forum posts, revoke membership to the forum, block access to the forum, modify Your account profile, or modify any User Content (as defined in Section 15 below) on the forum. You should contact the forum administrator directly with any complaint, grievance or problem. ProBoards reserves the right, but disclaims any perceived, implied or actual duty, to monitor disputes between Website members. You agree to hold ProBoards harmless in connection with any dispute or claim You make against any other member. Proboards staff mass deleting conflicts with the bold above. No, it does not. What this says is that you have the sole discretion (e.g. you don't need the user's permission) to delete their post. It does not speak to whether or not ProBoards can also exercise such discretion in removing content (in certain cases, such as the DMCA, we are even required to exercise discretion under the law). This part of the TOS is meant to inform the users that we are not the day-to-day operator of the site, in that we are not making the decisions on how that site is ran. However, the user is still a member of ProBoards, so if they come to us requesting that we remove the content they have posted, we can still assist them with that if we choose to. I don't think that's the point. The point was that if people did this on the forums.net service, ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ doesn't believe people will join. But this is not an inherent qualification to joining a forums.net forum, so what ♥ ℒʊ√ ♥ is saying is that if an admin decided to implement this, they don't believe people will join that specific forum, not forums.net forums as a whole / forums.net forums that do not have any such restrictions. I hope that made sense. If admin owns your posts on forums.net they by rights could do what Luv claimed. By joining a forums.net forum you agree that your content is now owned by the forum administrator. Something that Luv thinks would put people off if it were implemented on proboards.com. It may not be her point but it's something that is certainly at odds with her promoting forums.net. On Forums.net you are required to have your own Terms of Service. You do not automatically "own" what people post - you create your Terms of Service so that you clarify what that relationship is with your users. It is up to you to form whatever Terms of Service it is you want with your users (read section 6(c) of the Forums.net Terms of Service).
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